Kodak Hypo Clear question

NB23 · May 16, 2020

Okay, another stupid question. Actually, not so stupid but rather Kodak’s shady information is driving me nuts.

On the Hypo clearing agent Bag, it says that the capacity of One Gallon of HCA is good for up to 200 8x10 prints.

Now, are they refering to One Gallon of
STOCK SOLUTION? Or One Gallon of WORKING SOLUTION (diluted at 1+4)?? That’s 200 versus 1000 prints difference right there.

I’ve always been using it very conservatively, however now my stock is running low and I need to know the exsct info. There is no way of testing the stuff so I have to go with the theory.

kodak is not helping. Can Kodak fire that dude in charge of (mis)informing people like us?

thanks

mshchem · May 16, 2020

Kodak (Eastman) was great at making a person buy the instructions on how to use it's products. The useful life of Working solution of Kodak HCA is 24 hours in a tray. The capacity is stated as WITH A PRE-RINSE 150-200 films or plates, 200 prints. Without a pre-rinse 50-60 films or plates, or 80 prints. Circa 1970's Kodak Darkroom Dataguide.

This seems about right. I use and toss. Recommended storage of stock is 3 months, Kodak wanted to insure people didn't use old oxidized chemicals. In a full to the top bottle the stock will keep a bit longer.

Pre-rinse was usually defined as roughly 1-2 minutes in running water.

Ilford still supports with clear instructions on the use of Ilford chemistry. Give a look at their recommendations for archival paper processing. It doesn’t fit my workflow much of the time but it's been throughly vetted and it's good practice.
Best Regards Mike

NB23 · May 17, 2020

I’m still confused.

Is it 200 8x10 prints per Gallon of working solution or per Gallon of stock solution?

The capacity of a whole bag of KHC is 200 or 1000 8x10s?

mshchem said:
Kodak (Eastman) was great at making a person buy the instructions on how to use it's products. The useful life of Working solution of Kodak HCA is 24 hours in a tray. The capacity is stated as WITH A PRE-RINSE 150-200 films or plates, 200 prints. Without a pre-rinse 50-60 films or plates, or 80 prints. Circa 1970's Kodak Darkroom Dataguide.

This seems about right. I use and toss. Recommended storage of stock is 3 months, Kodak wanted to insure people didn't use old oxidized chemicals. In a full to the top bottle the stock will keep a bit longer.

Pre-rinse was usually defined as roughly 1-2 minutes in running water.

Ilford still supports with clear instructions on the use of Ilford chemistry. Give a look at their recommendations for archival paper processing. It doesn’t fit my workflow much of the time but it's been throughly vetted and it's good practice.
Best Regards Mike

NB23 · May 17, 2020

I’d like to go with Ilford’s recomendation but as opposed to kodak they recomend 10 minutes soaking instead of Kodak’s 2 minutes! Which is another confusing point...

mshchem · May 17, 2020

The working solution is 1 part stock solution plus 4 parts water. The working solution, in theory can treat 200 well rinsed prints/ gallon . So a bag of HCA will make 5 gallons of working solution and, again in theory treat 1000 prints.
These capacities haven't been updated for decades. Single weight papers absorb less fixer etc.

Personally I use a liter of working solution for about 10 to 12 prints. Mix from stock that is kept in full bottles.

HCA is mostly sodium sulfite and is quite vulnerable to aerial oxidation.

Kodak used to claim that the use of HCA allowed washing in water as cold as 40°F. This is IMHO nonsense. I maintain 68°F through the entire process.

jimjm · May 17, 2020

Going by the latest PDF I have from Kodak, it seems to say 200 8x10 sheets per gallon of working solution, if using a pre-rinse.
I can't see any reason to put prints thru stock solution, unless you're in a really big hurry.
I leave them in for between 3-5 mins.

NB23 · May 17, 2020

jimjm said:
Going by the latest PDF I have from Kodak, it seems to say 200 8x10 sheets per gallon of working solution, if using a pre-rinse.
I can't see any reason to put prints thru stock solution, unless you're in a really big hurry.
I leave them in for between 3-5 mins.

My confusion is still high. Ilford’s washaid requires 10 minutes soaking and its capacity is 200 8x10s per bottle (5L of working solution), and it’s twice as expensive as kodak’s hypo clear.

kodak, as opposed to Ilford’s 5L of working solution, makes 19 Liters. Effectively 5x more solution for half the price. I would be very surprised if Kodak is promising 5x the capacity (1000 8x10 prints per bag versus 200 8x10 prints per ilford bottle)

Let’s not forget that Kodak specifies 200 8x10 per gallon, but doesn’t specify working Gallon or stock Gallon.

mshchem · May 17, 2020

Look at the old Kodak literature I'm looking at a Kodak J-1 professional data book. It's recommending 1 minute wash, then 3 minutes in the hypo clear for DW paper, followed by 20 minute wash in rapidly flowing water. This 1973 J-1 claims that prints can be washed in water as cold as 35°F after treatment.

When I was a kid I used cold water to wash after HCA, the prints still look good.

The capacity is legit, there's a heck of a lot more powder in a big bag than what Ilford has in a bottle of liquid.

mshchem · May 17, 2020

jimjm said:
Going by the latest PDF I have from Kodak, it seems to say 200 8x10 sheets per gallon of working solution, if using a pre-rinse.
I can't see any reason to put prints thru stock solution, unless you're in a really big hurry.
I leave them in for between 3-5 mins.

This is correct. The current package makes 5 gallons of working solution which will treat in total 1000 prints that have been pre-rinsed for a minute in running water to get rid of excess fixer.
Believe it or not

NB23 · May 17, 2020

Wow, that’s too generous of Kodak. Almost unbelievable

koraks · May 17, 2020

Inagine what one could do with a simple bag of sodium sulfite...

NB23 · May 17, 2020

koraks said:
Inagine what one could do with a simple bag of sodium sulfite...

Next buy

Doremus Scudder · May 17, 2020

The instructions on the Hypo Clear package seem fairly straightforward to me. You make a concentrated stock solution which you then dilute further (1+4) to make a working solution. All the capacities and time recommendations are for the "clearing agent solution," which I assume to be the working solution. It would make zero sense otherwise.

Capacities for the "clearing agent solution" are "150-200 8x10s (or equivalent) films or 200 8x10s (or equivalent) papers." The reference to "clearing agent solution" is most certainly the working dilution; you shouldn't treat film or prints in the concentrated stock.

So, to get maximum capacity from the working solution, you need a water rinse after the fixing step of 30 seconds for films and 1 minute for papers (Kodak is referring to fiber-base papers here for sure). Treatment times are: 1-2 minutes for films, 2 minutes for single-weight papers (non-existent these days) and 3 minutes for double-weight papers.

If you don't rinse between fixer and Hypo Clear, "Capacity per gallon of clearing agent solution will then be reduced to 50-60 8x10s or equivalent for films and 80 8x10s or equivalent for papers." Again "clearing agent solution" means the working dilution.

Ilford's Wash Aid is basically the same thing, but they are not as generous in their capacity and they recommend a longer treatment time as part of their "optimum permanence" sequence. Their 40 8x10s per liter of working solution = roughly 150 8x10s per gallon, so 75% of the Kodak capacity. The longer treatment time allows for more ion exchange supposedly. It would be interesting to test to see if it really makes a big difference in reducing wash time. In any case, both Kodak and Ilford recommend a 20-minute wash after treatment.

FWIW, I mix my own clearing agent using a Tbsp of sodium sulfite and a pinch of bisulfite per liter (similar to the Kodak product without sequestering agents, etc.). I skip the rinse after the fixer and limit my capacity to around 20 8x10 or equivalent per liter (following the Kodak recommendation). I use the longer Ilford treatment time (which you could with the Kodak product as well; it can't hurt) and then wash for 60 minutes.

My problem with the Kodak stock solution is that it has a rather short shelf life, so I ended up wasting it if I didn't get back to use up the rest before the expiration time. Mixing what I need from scratch is much more economical, takes up less room and there's never any waste.

Hope that's clear,

Doremus

Vaughn · May 17, 2020

I hate to say this (almost), but the Kodak HCA package is quite clear about capacity. Working solution with rinse, 200 sheets of 8x10 fiber paper. Not for use with RC paper.

I suppose there might be more than one bag design around.

Heico Perma Wash is another good product. Already liquid if that is of interest (mix 3 ounces per gallon).

mshchem · May 17, 2020

NB23 said:
Wow, that’s too generous of Kodak. Almost unbelievable

The 10 minute soak that Ilford specifies is part of the Ilford Archival processing sequence. This is completely different from the traditional Kodak recommendations. Kodak mostly used hardener in fixer, much longer fixing times.

Ilford uses the 1+4 dilution with rapid (ammonium thiosulfate) fixer. Process is 2 minutes in developer, 5-10 seconds in stop bath, 1 minute (no longer) in fresh rapid fixer with constant agitation, then 5 minutes 1st wash in a good supply of fresh running water, 10 minutes in wash aid followed by, a final wash of 5 minutes in fresh running water.

All this is on Ilford's website. It's not about washaid potency, it's about the Ilford method. There's some great reading on Ilford's site. Ilford is totally committed to the fullest range of black and white, soup to nuts. Sometimes it doesn't hurt to follow the directions. . I will add this if you follow the non-hardening fixer route (as pointed out by Ilford ) don't try to dry the print on a dryer, the prints tend to stick to the canvas. I can speak from experience

NB23 · May 17, 2020

It’s all been very clear for the past 25 years I’ve been doing darkroom work. However, it struck me that they didn’t specify “working” or “stock” solution.

I’ve always been on the safe side with HCA, but as I am preparing to print 20x24 fb prints (16 a day for the next 12 days), i realized that I’ll be on the verge of acceptability as far as HCA goes. And while reading the instructions I realized it wasn’t clear anymore.

Thanks for your input, all you guys!

Doremus Scudder said:
The instructions on the Hypo Clear package seem fairly straightforward to me. You make a concentrated stock solution which you then dilute further (1+4) to make a working solution. All the capacities and time recommendations are for the "clearing agent solution," which I assume to be the working solution. It would make zero sense otherwise.

Capacities for the "clearing agent solution" are "150-200 8x10s (or equivalent) films or 200 8x10s (or equivalent) papers." The reference to "clearing agent solution" is most certainly the working dilution; you shouldn't treat film or prints in the concentrated stock.

So, to get maximum capacity from the working solution, you need a water rinse after the fixing step of 30 seconds for films and 1 minute for papers (Kodak is referring to fiber-base papers here for sure). Treatment times are: 1-2 minutes for films, 2 minutes for single-weight papers (non-existent these days) and 3 minutes for double-weight papers.

If you don't rinse between fixer and Hypo Clear, "Capacity per gallon of clearing agent solution will then be reduced to 50-60 8x10s or equivalent for films and 80 8x10s or equivalent for papers." Again "clearing agent solution" means the working dilution.

Ilford's Wash Aid is basically the same thing, but they are not as generous in their capacity and they recommend a longer treatment time as part of their "optimum permanence" sequence. Their 40 8x10s per liter of working solution = roughly 150 8x10s per gallon, so 75% of the Kodak capacity. The longer treatment time allows for more ion exchange supposedly. It would be interesting to test to see if it really makes a big difference in reducing wash time. In any case, both Kodak and Ilford recommend a 20-minute wash after treatment.

FWIW, I mix my own clearing agent using a Tbsp of sodium sulfite and a pinch of bisulfite per liter (similar to the Kodak product without sequestering agents, etc.). I skip the rinse after the fixer and limit my capacity to around 20 8x10 or equivalent per liter (following the Kodak recommendation). I use the longer Ilford treatment time (which you could with the Kodak product as well; it can't hurt) and then wash for 60 minutes.

My problem with the Kodak stock solution is that it has a rather short shelf life, so I ended up wasting it if I didn't get back to use up the rest before the expiration time. Mixing what I need from scratch is much more economical, takes up less room and there's never any waste.

Hope that's clear,

Doremus

NB23 · May 17, 2020

Nowhere does it clearly say that the capacity is for a Gallon of working solution (a solution diluted 1:4). It just says “a Gallon of solution”.

And me being used to Kodak’s shady bulsheet (new HC-110 being “same” as old HC-110 kind of stuff, and the list is getting long), I wasn’t sure anymore.

Vaughn said:
I hate to say this (almost), but the Kodak HCA package is quite clear about capacity. Working solution with rinse, 200 sheets of 8x10 fiber paper. Not for use with RC paper.

I suppose there might be more than one bag design around.

Heico Perma Wash is another good product. Already liquid if that is of interest (mix 3 ounces per gallon).

Vaughn · May 18, 2020

The pkg gives all the info. Looks like their graphic designer(s) need to take into account confused users a little better. One needs to assume that the info in the lower white text box concerning the Working Solution is about the Working Solution. There really is no other logical way to take the info. If they are referring to the capacity being 200 prints after a water rinse, it is safe to assume that they are talking about the working solution...because one does not use it full strength after a water rinse.

But blame Kodak if you wish.

NB23 · May 18, 2020

Vaughn said:
The pkg gives all the info. Looks like their graphic designer(s) need to take into account confused users a little better. One needs to assume that the info in the lower white text box concerning the Working Solution is about the Working Solution. There really is no other logical way to take the info. If they are referring to the capacity being 200 prints after a water rinse, it is safe to assume that they are talking about the working solution...because one does not use it full strength after a water rinse.

But blame Kodak if you wish.

As far as I comprehend your post, you are assuming.

I have been assuming, too. But assuming still has its share of gray area. And I much prefer when things are perfectly clear. In this case, it isn’t.

Doremus Scudder · May 18, 2020

mshchem said:
The 10 minute soak that Ilford specifies is part of the Ilford Archival processing sequence. ...
Ilford uses the 1+4 dilution with rapid (ammonium thiosulfate) fixer. Process is 2 minutes in developer, 5-10 seconds in stop bath, 1 minute (no longer) in fresh rapid fixer with constant agitation, then 5 minutes 1st wash in a good supply of fresh running water, 10 minutes in wash aid followed by a final wash of 5 minutes in fresh running water.
...

It's worth noting that the Ilford sequence for optimum permanence calls for a 20-minute final wash in running water. The sequence with the five-minute final wash is for a much lower standard of permanence (or a typographical error!). I certainly wouldn't trust a five-minute wash to do the job!

In any case, testing is your friend here; HT-2 for residual hypo...

Best,

Doremus

mshchem · May 18, 2020

Doremus Scudder said:
It's worth noting that the Ilford sequence for optimum permanence calls for a 20-minute final wash in running water. The sequence with the five-minute final wash is for a much lower standard of permanence (or a typographical error!). I certainly wouldn't trust a five-minute wash to do the job!

In any case, testing is your friend here; HT-2 for residual hypo...

Best,

Doremus

Totally agree with you on the HT-2 . I'm getting my information from a 2002 Ilford Product Data Guide. They are claiming better than the ANSI standards, even with a final 5 minute wash. I follow the 1 minute fixer recommendation, and I give the print a quick rinse, then into a holding tray with Kodak Hypo clear for 3-5 minutes. After that I do a 5 minute wash in a round washer, then into archival washer.

The Ilford method works but it doesn't fit my workflow. According to my book the thiosulfate levels are not detectable by HT-2, and using the ANSI methylene blue the levels are average 0.2 micrograms per square centimeter.

Seems like more work to have to stand and monitor running water washes, constantly be watching a 10 minute hypo clearing step (I would want to see nearly constant gentle agitation ) and the a final wash with running water.

As you point out TEST w/HT-2 !

M Carter · May 18, 2020

For a few years now, I've just been buying sulfite by the pound, and mixing something like a half-film vial per liter-or-so. Solid pre-rinse, maybe 2 trays of water change, then a few minutes in HCA. Prints test clean with RHT after as low as 20 minutes in warm-ish water.

But I've never added bisulfate - always understood that to be for tray life, and I'm usually done with printing and washing within a couple hours. Or does the bisulfate amp up the clearing power of the HCA?

And another one - often I'll dial in a print across a couple days, and then just do one or two 16x20 or 20x24 in a fairly quick session; I do the HCA in my wash tank, and after a few minutes I just start washing vs. dumping the HCA. I figure if it has the capacity to do a bunch more prints, it'll continue to work diluted. Again, I test every print with HCA and all seems good.

mshchem · May 18, 2020

I think that this shows how little Kodak Alaris cares about black and white chemistry. Information is often just very old documents from the glory days.

With the new ownership at Ilford there's been a real investment in website development, a genuine new RC paper and more.

Regarding Kodak chemistry, all the directions used to be included in each package, all this was on Eastman Kodak's website, Alaris did not dedicate the resources to preserve this online. Now we are left guessing.

OP, 16 20 x 24 prints a day. Wow that's work. I printed a dozen 10x24 pan shot prints recently, fiber base, selenium toner etc. My legs felt like lead at the end of the day.

RalphLambrecht · May 18, 2020

NB23 said:
Next buy

Use fresh and toss after use.

NB23 · May 19, 2020

mshchem said:
I think that this shows how little Kodak Alaris cares about black and white chemistry. Information is often just very old documents from the glory days.

With the new ownership at Ilford there's been a real investment in website development, a genuine new RC paper and more.

Regarding Kodak chemistry, all the directions used to be included in each package, all this was on Eastman Kodak's website, Alaris did not dedicate the resources to preserve this online. Now we are left guessing.

OP, 16 20 x 24 prints a day. Wow that's work. I printed a dozen 10x24 pan shot prints recently, fiber base, selenium toner etc. My legs felt like lead at the end of the day.

Yeah, I’m not as young as I used to be... but I still push myself hard. I’ve been printing quite regularly for the past 10 years (fifteen to twenty 16x20/20x24 per session), one or two weekly sessions.

And since the Covid social distancing saga, I’ve been printing 20 16x20 a day, for the past 60 days. I have now switched to 11x14 but I plan to start 10x24 soon. I give myself two weeks to finish the 10x24, and then I’m back to 11x14 fb.

If I follow the present pace, I should be finished by october. I’m lucky to have the worthy negatives, that’s what’s keeping me going.

btw, if you are curious to see my “live” printing sessions, I invite you to take a look at my Instagram stories. There are about 620 15-seconds snippets.
My instagram is Ned_bojic

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