Kodak HC-110 and Ilfotec HC Price Difference

Steven Lee · Sep 4, 2023

People frequently recommend syringes for measuring small amount of concentrates, and yet it is easy to make a mistake when using one. Most have a plastic tube attached to their beak. That tube's volume is not counted on the syringe's markings. In my case of a 12ml syringe the tube adds 2ml. This is significant.

Suppose you need 300ml of a working solution diluted 1+49. You need 6ml of a concentrate. If you don't account for the tube's volume you'll get 8ml. That's a whopping 25% more than you need. Moreover, you can't just subtract 2ml because the tube is never quite 100% empty when you're done, some % of the syrup sticks to its walls and you don't know how much exactly. That's why the manuals recommend making a stock solution first.

For D-76 fans: the best value is Ultrafine D76. It's been $6.09 for 1 gallon for years! They never increased the price. The product itself is great. Easy to dissolve and the results I get from it are identical to Ilford ID-11. I have no idea why it's never mentioned in any online forums.

madNbad · Sep 4, 2023

It'll be easy enough to mix 500ml of working solution and leave the concentrate in the bottle until I need more.

mshchem · Sep 4, 2023

Steven Lee said:
People frequently recommend syringes for measuring small amount of concentrates, and yet it is easy to make a mistake when using one. Most have a plastic tube attached to their beak. That tube's volume is not counted on the syringe's markings. In my case of a 12ml syringe the tube adds 2ml. This is significant.

Suppose you need 300ml of a working solution diluted 1+49. You need 6ml of a concentrate. If you don't account for the tube's volume you'll get 8ml. That's a whopping 25% more than you need. Moreover, you can't just subtract 2ml because the tube is never quite 100% empty when you're done, some % of the syrup sticks to its walls and you don't know how much exactly. That's why the manuals recommend making a stock solution first.

For D-76 fans: the best value is Ultrafine D76. It's been $6.09 for 1 gallon for years! They never increased the price. The product itself is great. Easy to dissolve and the results I get from it are identical to Ilford ID-11. I have no idea why it's never mentioned in any online forums.

Smart! Also formulas are published for D-76, but there's several generic versions like the Ultrafine available ready to mix.

Ballinderry-Michael · Sep 4, 2023

I'm sorry to be pedantic about this; but there's a minor bit of confusion here, treating 1+31 and 1:31 as if they're the same. They're not: 1+31 is 1:32 - one part concentrate to thirty one parts water, or a solution of one part concentrate in thirty two parts altogether. A small difference at that dilution; but more significant if you treat 1+5 and 1:5 as the same, for example.

And Alex Benjamin is certainly correct about madNbad's maths. The stock solution is one part concentrate to three parts water and then dilution B is one part stock to seven parts water - so that's 4x8, therefore 32. It's easy to mix for my Kestrel S/S tank, which is an 8 oz one. Paterson grads are marked in US and imperial fluid ounces and my small one has the quarter ounce mark nice and clear to see. I've a feeling that the choice of B (and other dilutions) had something to do with that. My small Jobo tank takes 250 ml and needs a little more calculation to mix for.

Good night; and apologies for spelling out again what I meant in an earlier post.

Alex Benjamin · Sep 4, 2023

Ballinderry-Michael said:
I'm sorry to be pedantic about this; but there's a minor bit of confusion here, treating 1+31 and 1:31 as if they're the same. They're not: 1+31 is 1:32 - one part concentrate to thirty one parts water, or a solution of one part concentrate in thirty two parts altogether. A small difference at that dilution; but more significant if you treat 1+5 and 1:5 as the same, for example.

Not pedantic at all, a very essential precision, and I'm guilty of mixing the two nomenclatures. Ilford is pretty clear in its instruction: it is 1+31. The Kodak HC-110 data sheet, however, indicates 1:31 under the heading "ratio of concentrate to water," which seems to me indicates 1+31.

TomR55 · Sep 4, 2023

Steven Lee said:
People frequently recommend syringes for measuring small amount of concentrates, and yet it is easy to make a mistake when using one. Most have a plastic tube attached to their beak. That tube's volume is not counted on the syringe's markings. In my case of a 12ml syringe the tube adds 2ml. This is significant.

Suppose you need 300ml of a working solution diluted 1+49. You need 6ml of a concentrate. If you don't account for the tube's volume you'll get 8ml. That's a whopping 25% more than you need. Moreover, you can't just subtract 2ml because the tube is never quite 100% empty when you're done, some % of the syrup sticks to its walls and you don't know how much exactly. That's why the manuals recommend making a stock solution first.

For D-76 fans: the best value is Ultrafine D76. It's been $6.09 for 1 gallon for years! They never increased the price. The product itself is great. Easy to dissolve and the results I get from it are identical to Ilford ID-11. I have no idea why it's never mentioned in any online forums.

This is an excellent observation, and one reason that I prefer working with less concentrated developers---it's easier to manage a 1mL discrepancy when your target volumes are 30 to 60 mL of developer, i.e., a 1:9 to 1:19 solutions, per each 600 mL batch.

madNbad · Sep 4, 2023

I noticed when searching for more information about Ilfotec, the same comments pop up every few years.

MattKing · Sep 4, 2023

Ballinderry-Michael said:
I'm sorry to be pedantic about this; but there's a minor bit of confusion here, treating 1+31 and 1:31 as if they're the same. They're not: 1+31 is 1:32 - one part concentrate to thirty one parts water, or a solution of one part concentrate in thirty two parts altogether. A small difference at that dilution; but more significant if you treat 1+5 and 1:5 as the same, for example.

We have pages of discussion about this.
It depends on what world/realm you are working in. Or in pedantry, what "school" you are a member of.
And if it is the world/realm that has been so greatly influenced by Eastman Kodak, 1:31 = 1+31.
In other worlds/realms, sometimes the number on the right refers to the total volume, while sometimes the number on the right refers to the volume of the dilutant (which happens to be the Kodak approach).

mshchem · Sep 5, 2023

I remember when you bought a 1 US 16 fluid ounce bottle of HC-110 which would make 3 1/2 US gallons of Dil. B working solution for the big old Ace hard rubber tanks sold by Kodak and similar sized SS tanks sold by many companies. HC-110 replenisher came in a different similar sized bottle. No one used HC-110 one shot.

Craig · Sep 5, 2023

madNbad said:
II stumbled across the Film Photography Project has their brand of D-76 in 1 liter packages for $8.99 plus shipping. I ordered two.

Ilford ID11 comes in 1litre packages and it's basically the same as D76. That should be widely available.

btaylor · Sep 5, 2023

takilmaboxer said:
FWIW, with respect to longevity; I tried out Freestyle's L110. Beautiful results! The data sheet says the unopened product has an indefinite shelf life, but once opened, it's two months in a tightly stoppered bottle. Sure enough, after the first two rolls, mine sat on the shelf for three months, tightly stoppered, and turned a light brown color; and rendered only very thin negatives when I tried it again. Oh well, I have plenty of metol and sulfite on hand, and D-23 works great!

I have had a very different experience with L110. Almost done with one bottle, it turned a light brown color and it’s 8 years since I first opened it. Works perfectly. I did store it with no air in it, maybe that made the difference

subsole · Sep 5, 2023

Craig said:
Ilford ID11 comes in 1litre packages and it's basically the same as D76. That should be widely available.

There is also ADOX D-76 and Fomadon P (that's D-76d).

All available as 1 liter packages:

ADOX D-76 Film Developer to mix 1000 ml - fotoimpex.com analogue photography

The Kodak Developer-76 recipe is a photography legend next to Rodinal, gaining almost universal recognition as the go-to developer for photojournalistic work during the ...

www.fotoimpex.com

FOMADON P

is a two-component, powder metol-hydroquinone developer which is equivalent to the developer Kodak D76 or Ilford ID11. It is designed for manual processing of all types of black and white films. It produces images in neutral black tone. It is supplied in packaging to make up 1 litre of working...

www.foma.cz

Ballinderry-Michael · Sep 5, 2023

Alex Benjamin said:
Not pedantic at all, a very essential precision, and I'm guilty of mixing the two nomenclatures. Ilford is pretty clear in its instruction: it is 1+31. The Kodak HC-110 data sheet, however, indicates 1:31 under the heading "ratio of concentrate to water," which seems to me indicates 1+31.

MattKing said:
We have pages of discussion about this.
It depends on what world/realm you are working in. Or in pedantry, what "school" you are a member of.
And if it is the world/realm that has been so greatly influenced by Eastman Kodak, 1:31 = 1+31.
In other worlds/realms, sometimes the number on the right refers to the total volume, while sometimes the number on the right refers to the volume of the dilutant (which happens to be the Kodak approach).

I'm clearly out of step with standard practice here and apologise for adding to potential confusion.

takilmaboxer · Sep 5, 2023

btaylor said:
I have had a very different experience with L110. Almost done with one bottle, it turned a light brown color and it’s 8 years since I first opened it. Works perfectly. I did store it with no air in it, maybe that made the difference

I think you are absolutely right! It's just that the old HC-110 lasted forever.
My technique needs improvement.

madNbad · Sep 5, 2023

Ballinderry-Michael said:
I'm clearly out of step with standard practice here and apologise for adding to potential confusion.

No apologies needed, confusion abounds! I was prepared to continue my standard practice of using an oral syringe to measure a small amount of developer, stumbled across a video that inspired me to actually read the data sheet. Am I going to follow Ilfords instructions? Mostly but there is no way I’m going to make four liters of the 1+3 stock solution. The general consensus is, as long as you don’t add water, the concentrate will last. When my, expensive, bottle arrives later today, it will be decanted in to four 250ml brown glass bottles. This should help mitigate any degradation due to exposure to air. From one of those bottles. I’ll pour out 125ml of developer, mix it with 375ml of distilled water and pour that Into a 500ml bottle for my working solution.
I may even keep track of how many rolls it develops!
Thanks to everyone for the help.

Ballinderry-Michael · Sep 5, 2023

madNbad said:
No apologies needed, confusion abounds! I was prepared to continue my standard practice of using an oral syringe to measure a small amount of developer, stumbled across a video that inspired me to actually read the data sheet. Am I going to follow Ilfords instructions? Mostly but there is no way I’m going to make four liters of the 1+3 stock solution. The general consensus is, as long as you don’t add water, the concentrate will last. When my, expensive, bottle arrives later today, it will be decanted in to four 250ml brown glass bottles. This should help mitigate any degradation due to exposure to air. From one of those bottles. I’ll pour out 125ml of developer, mix it with 375ml of distilled water and pour that Into a 500ml bottle for my working solution.
I may even keep track of how many rolls it develops!
Thanks to everyone for the help.

What you describe doing will leave you with three 250ml bottles full of concentrate and one half full, along with one 500ml bottle full of stock solution. To develop film, you will still need to dilute further (at a ratio of 1+7, if you want dilution B) from that 500ml bottle.

It's not a question of "if you don't add water" but rather "as long as you exclude oxygen". If you leave your fourth bottle half full, then it will start to deteriorate. My procedure is to top up the bottle with Protectan (basically, butane) each time I remove concentrate: as I find other solutions (e.g. collapsible bottles or topping up with marbles) less convenient. Any of those solutions is an attempt to protact the concentrate from air.

MattKing · Sep 5, 2023

Ballinderry-Michael said:
It's not a question of "if you don't add water" but rather "as long as you exclude oxygen".

Just so you are aware, with HC-110 at least, it is indeed "if you don't add water". Moisture is what causes HC-110 concentrate to degrade.
HC-110 concentrate will not develop film - it needs water before it will have any significant effect on a piece of film.
Sometimes we forget that water is a very important and powerful chemical itself.

Ballinderry-Michael · Sep 5, 2023

MattKing said:
Just so you are aware, with HC-110 at least, it is indeed "if you don't add water". Moisture is what causes HC-110 concentrate to degrade.
HC-110 concentrate will not develop film - it needs water before it will have any significant effect on a piece of film.
Sometimes we forget that water is a very important and powerful chemical itself.

Yes; but are you saying that concentrated HC-110 doesn't oxidize?

MattKing · Sep 5, 2023

Ballinderry-Michael said:
Yes; but are you saying that concentrated HC-110 doesn't oxidize?

It doesn't appear to, unless there is moisture present.
This is, of course, the pre-2019 HC-110 and possibly the post 2020 HC-110.

madNbad · Sep 5, 2023

Ballinderry-Michael said:
Yes; but are you saying that concentrated HC-110 doesn't oxidize?

No, you're correct, oxidation cases degradation but moisture accelerates it. The bottles I'm using seal well and Ilford gives guidelines for how long the developer should last both diluted and undiluted. I'll add some marbles to the partial bottle.

SodaAnt · Sep 5, 2023

Steven Lee said:
People frequently recommend syringes for measuring small amount of concentrates, and yet it is easy to make a mistake when using one. Most have a plastic tube attached to their beak. That tube's volume is not counted on the syringe's markings. In my case of a 12ml syringe the tube adds 2ml. This is significant.

I use small graduated cylinders to measure small amounts of stuff like HC-110. A 10ml is perfect for this. Make sure you rinse the cylinder out with several rinses of water and pour that water into your mixing vessel to make sure you get every last bit of what you measured.

Chemistry was my profession, and it's still my hobby, so I have lots of lab glassware. Photo suppliers like Photographer's Formulary sell graduated cylinders, and you can also get them from suppliers like Fisher Scientific and Carolina Biological Supply (assuming owning lab glassware isn't illegal where you live). I recommend glass graduates over the plastic ones (easier to clean--just don't drop them!)

foc · Sep 5, 2023

My understanding is that you can use Ilfotec HC exactly the way you would use Kodak HC110 but only as a concentrate.
Don't follow Ilford's suggestion of making a stock solution.
It appears that if Ilfotec HC is used the same as Kodak HC110, using a syringe to measure the small amounts, and care is taken with the remaining concentrate in the bottle (dispelling air & moisture) the concentrate will have a very long shelf life

Basically, buy Ilfotec HC but use Kodak HC110 instructions.

SodaAnt · Sep 5, 2023

foc said:
Basically, buy Ilfotec HC but use Kodak HC110 instructions.

How about LegacyPro L110 as sold by Freestyle? Close enough to Kodak HC-110 to use as a viable substitute?

madNbad · Sep 5, 2023

SodaAnt said:
How about LegacyPro L110 as sold by Freestyle? Close enough to Kodak HC-110 to use as a viable substitute?

There are members use it as their regular developer and have good results. It’s hard to beat the price compared to HC-110 or Ilfotec HC. It might be worth trying it. The only complaints seem to be it hash a much shorter shelf life than the offerings from Kodak or Ilford.

Alex Benjamin · Sep 5, 2023

foc said:
Basically, buy Ilfotec HC but use Kodak HC110 instructions.

...while remembering development times are different.

Kodak HC-110 and Ilfotec HC Price Difference

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ADOX D-76 Film Developer to mix 1000 ml - fotoimpex.com analogue photography

The Kodak Developer-76 recipe is a photography legend next to Rodinal, gaining almost universal recognition as the go-to developer for photojournalistic work during the ...

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ADOX D-76 Film Developer to mix 1000 ml - fotoimpex.com analogue photography The Kodak Developer-76 recipe is a photography legend next to Rodinal, gaining almost universal recognition as the go-to developer for photojournalistic work during the ... www.fotoimpex.com ​

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ADOX D-76 Film Developer to mix 1000 ml - fotoimpex.com analogue photography

The Kodak Developer-76 recipe is a photography legend next to Rodinal, gaining almost universal recognition as the go-to developer for photojournalistic work during the ...

www.fotoimpex.com