Kodak Flexicolor Delevoper Starter LORR Expiry

kabbott · May 29, 2019

I've been using Kodak Flexicolor Developer Starter LORR and purchasing it from Unique Photo:

https://www.uniquephoto.com/product...1-2l-6601074/_/searchString/developer starter

Often, this bottle arrives with 2-4 months left on the expiration and at only 30mL of this stuff per 1L of C-41 developer, I don't make much headway on the 1.2L in that 2-4 month timespan.

I'm interested to know if anyone has any experience using Developer Starter past the expiration date and if so, how long have you found it usable with decent results? At present, I just buy new so that my chemistry isn't expired and maybe that's the best approach.

Thanks,
Karl

mshchem · May 29, 2019

kabbott said:
I've been using Kodak Flexicolor Developer Starter LORR and purchasing it from Unique Photo:

https://www.uniquephoto.com/product/kodak-c-41-dev-starter-lorr-1-2l-6601074/_/searchString/developer starter

Often, this bottle arrives with 2-4 months left on the expiration and at only 30mL of this stuff per 1L of C-41 developer, I don't make much headway on the 1.2L in that 2-4 month timespan.

I'm interested to know if anyone has any experience using Developer Starter past the expiration date and if so, how long have you found it usable with decent results? At present, I just buy new so that my chemistry isn't expired and maybe that's the best approach.

Thanks,
Karl

I'm not an expert. I don't think that you will have a problem. I have starters for Kodak Flexicolor and Ektacolor (paper) and a Kodak starter for black and white (this is at least 15 years old) . My color starters are 3 years or older. For developer I think the main ingredient is potassium bromide and a little sodium chloride. Pretty stable stuff.

MattKing · May 29, 2019

Is there anything in the starters that is even capable of going bad?
I'd expect that the "use before" dates on starters relate mostly to the integrity of the containers.

mshchem · May 29, 2019

Agreed. Use by dates are also commonly used as date codes of manufacturing as well.
I don't think there's anything perishable in the starter. I know that in starter for XTOL and other black and white developers there was KBr and NaCl. I think one was for anion the other for cation. But I am no expert on this. All I know is bromides are used as a restrainer in developer formulations.

EdSawyer · May 30, 2019

I use expired C41 starter and its' been fine (multiple years old). I didn't even know it had an expiration date.

John Salim · May 30, 2019

I've read starters are usually very stable and have a long shelf life.
I use E-6 first and colour developer starters ( about 10 years old ) every year on my annual tank start up.

John S

kabbott · May 30, 2019

Thanks for all the responses! This certainly sounds like something one doesn't have to be too worried about.

Karl

GBS · Apr 30, 2021

Hi @kabbott

I came across the post on your website which led me here. I have tried C27, C29, and C42 DIY formulas (all found here) and am getting consistently dark base--almost too dark to scan. I've triple-quadruple checked my measurements, pH, etc. and can't find the problem. I use most of the same chemicals in my ECN-2 development without issue, so I have to assume those are good. I have maybe one more test left in me, then it's time to move on. Anyway, that was all a tangent to say...

I'm interested in trying Flexicolor and have one main question for you or anyone who comes across this:

For the 5L Developer replinisher, can it be divided properly and mixed 1L at a time--specifically: how long do the 3 parts last in an open container before expiring - if ever? I am shooting mostly ECN-2 now, so I don't have a need for 5L at once and would love to know that the 3 parts will last a while.

Thanks!

Oh - one more thing: say I'm processing more than 4 rolls in one session, have you followed the z131 replenishment rates to extend the life of the developer, and if so, how many days could it be expected to last? I don't see a lifespan for the sink-line section: https://125px.com/docs/techpubs/kodak/z131_03.pdf

Donald Qualls · Apr 30, 2021

What are you using for bleach? Dark base can come from fog, but it can also come from incomplete bleaching of the filter layer.

Yes, you can mix Flexicolor in fractional quantities -- in fact, when I'm home, I have a document that gives the exact amounts to use for many convenient amounts of Flexicolor developer (Parts A, B, C, water, and Starter), for the standard, RT, or LORR versions. While this isn't recommended for one- or two-component powder mixes (because of potential stratification), for liquid concentrates it works very well.

In general, for whatever it's worth, the concentrates are supposed to last very well.

I've been following the Z131 replenishment for a 1 L tank solution of Flexicolor LORR color developer for about six months now, and as of yesterday, was still getting good results. Last night I processed 135-36 roll of XP2 Super and replenished 33 ml (I can't measure 33.1 with enough precision to worry about the tenths; I work to the nearest 1 ml). My tank solution goes into a full, tightly closed PET bottle (originally obtained with club soda inside) after use. I do agitate only with the Paterson swizzle stick, as a concession to limit oxygenation of the developer.

MattKing · Apr 30, 2021

Donald Qualls said:
Yes, you can mix Flexicolor in fractional quantities -- in fact, when I'm home, I have a document that gives the exact amounts to use for many convenient amounts of Flexicolor developer (Parts A, B, C, water, and Starter), for the standard, RT, or LORR versions.

Here is the 2009 version: https://125px.com/docs/techpubs/kodak/cis49-2009_12.pdf

Donald Qualls · Apr 30, 2021

MattKing said:
Here is the 2009 version: https://125px.com/docs/techpubs/kodak/cis49-2009_12.pdf

I think that's the same one I have stored on my home computer.

mtjade2007 · Apr 30, 2021

GBS said:
Hi @kabbott

For the 5L Developer replinisher, can it be divided properly and mixed 1L at a time--specifically: how long do the 3 parts last in an open container before expiring - if ever? I am shooting mostly ECN-2 now, so I don't have a need for 5L at once and would love to know that the 3 parts will last a while

I have tried it many times and it did not work well for me. I think it is fairly difficult to accurately mix part A,B and C partially for 1L of working developer. Maybe it is just me. But I really tried hard with little success. If you want to try and see if you have better luck here is what I will suggest. Mix part A and B with water (yes, without the part C) to make 5L of the developer. If it needs starter just add it too. When it's time you need 1L of the developer just pour a liter of this developer then carefully add 1/5th of the content of the part C bottle. In this case the accuracy will only be dependent on how accurate you get 1/5th of the part C. If it is accurate then your developer will work just fine.

The 5L developer without part C will not go bad just about forever. You won't need to worry if the resulted developer (without part C) will go bad soon. However, the part C bottle once opened will go bad in a month no more than 2 months regardless it is partially used or not. This may sound really bad but there is a remedy. If your part C has gone bad just toss it. Instead of using part C just add 5 grams of CD-4 for the litter of the developer (without part C). by doing this you will be able to use all of the 5L developer no matter how long it takes for you to use all 5 litters of it.

I have done it for over 10 years and never had a problem.

GBS · Apr 30, 2021

Right on! These are all fantastic replies. Thanks a ton! @Donald Qualls @MattKing @mtjade2007

I'm looking at the LORR chemicals available from Unique. That CIS link is killer thank you!

I would only likely try to replenish for a month or so since I'll be doing steel tank with more agitation, even getting 8-12 135-36/L would be great.

Donald Qualls said:
What are you using for bleach? Dark base can come from fog, but it can also come from incomplete bleaching of the filter layer.

I'm using the Potassium Ferricyanide bleach from my ECN-2 process. I haven't been able to do it with every test, but I've asked my lab to re-bleach and fix a couple of my tests and the base fog does not change.

Donald Qualls · Apr 30, 2021

If you're going to order Flexicolor color dev and starter, go ahead and order Flexicolor bleach, too. It's relatively expensive, but it lasts a LONG time in tank solution form -- a liter will bleach a couple dozen rolls. Further, aerating (for instance, shaking a partially filled bottle) will regenerate it to some extent.

You can get color dev, starter, bleach, fixer, and final rinse concentrates for just over $100 including shipping from Unique -- I'd recommend just going whole hog. And then shoot more color.

GBS · Apr 30, 2021

@Donald Qualls Aweosme! Thanks! I feel good about my ECN-2 fix and final rinse. Def plan to add bleach to the order. I have a friend I can split that with.

Donald Qualls · Apr 30, 2021

GBS said:
I feel good about my ECN-2 fix and final rinse.

There's no significant difference between the fixers and final rinse (the latter is just a surfactant plus anti-biological ingredients -- PhotoFlo equivalent plus something to prevent mold and bacteria growth in the dye layers).

GBS · Apr 30, 2021

Donald Qualls said:
There's no significant difference between the fixers and final rinse

Cheers, I got the final rinse formula from this forum - formalin and photoflo. The fixer is form the ECN-2 publication.

mtjade2007 · Apr 30, 2021

GBS said:
Cheers, I got the final rinse formula from this forum - formalin and photoflo. The fixer is form the ECN-2 publication.

I think if it is formalin based it is called stabilizer. Kodak final rinse does not contain formalin. if your film is made before 2001/2002 time frame you need to use stabilizer. Otherwise you can use either one. One important purpose to use a stabilizer or final rise is to keep the color dyes on the film from fading.

GBS · May 1, 2021

mtjade2007 said:
I think if it is formalin based it is called stabilizer. Kodak final rinse does not contain formalin. if your film is made before 2001/2002 time frame you need to use stabilizer. Otherwise you can use either one. One important purpose to use a stabilizer or final rise is to keep the color dyes on the film from fading.

Thanks! This makes sense. I was interchanging the terms. This made me wonder, though, about stabilizing ECN-2 films. I've been using Kodak Final Rinse, as they're all newer stocks, but curios if ECN-2 followed the same changeover away from formalin in the early 2000s, or if ECN-2 still requires formalin?

The formula calls for "kodak stabilizer additive," but the publication is from 1996. I suppose the safe bet is to use formalin? Anyway, not trying to hijack the thread! All great info!

lantau · May 1, 2021

ECN-II stabilizer is only a surfactant. No formaldehyde required.

Given the scale of ECN-II operations for film makers I'd say it was very important for Kodak to eliminate Formaldehyde from the process for health and safety reasons.

Donald Qualls · May 1, 2021

lantau said:
Given the scale of ECN-II operations for film makers I'd say it was very important for Kodak to eliminate Formaldehyde from the process for health and safety reasons.

I'm pretty sure ECN-2 films got this upgrade first, followed by C-41 (at least at Kodak). The last bastion of formaldehyde in photographic processes was rapid-access X-ray processing, where the temperature required extreme hardening of the emulsion. There was a major health hazard to radiologists from this until 2010 or so, and the changeover of X-ray to digital (in most applications) was more of a factor in worker safety here than changes in the rapid-access process.

GBS · May 2, 2021

lantau said:
ECN-II stabilizer is only a surfactant. No formaldehyde required.

Given the scale of ECN-II operations for film makers I'd say it was very important for Kodak to eliminate Formaldehyde from the process for health and safety reasons.

Hugely helpful! This puts my mind at ease about re-stabbing a year's worth of rolls cut into strips.

Donald Qualls said:
I'm pretty sure ECN-2 films got this upgrade first, followed by C-41 (at least at Kodak).

I started thinking this as well. I've been processing and printing my own BW for decades, but am only getting into DIY color after getting some Vision
stock. I'm still learning the ins and outs of the differences in the chemistry and processes between C41 (pre- and post 2002) and ECN-2

Kodak Flexicolor Delevoper Starter LORR Expiry

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