Kodak Flexicolor C-41 chemicals

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Tim Gray

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I want to try my hand at C-41 developing at home. I'll be using stainless tanks and some kind of water bath to maintain temperatures. Could someone clue me in as to what Kodak Flexicolor chemicals I need to order? I'm confused as to what is the full set of chemicals is and which ones I want for home style development by hand...

Here's a link to Adorama (where I hope to order from since they actually ship this stuff).
Dead Link Removed

Thanks!
 

srs5694

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FWIW, your link doesn't work for me; it just goes to Adorama's home page. Dead Link Removed works for me.

Kodak and Adorama do make it hard for hobbyists who are just starting out; those product descriptions are awful! Conceptually, you need from two to four items (in addition to water, a developing tank, etc.):

  1. Developer
  2. Bleach
  3. Fixer
  4. Stabilizer or final rinse

The bleach and fixer can be combined into a single bath (blix), thus reducing the number of items to three. AFAIK all the kits that are marketed for hobbyists use blixes. Unfortunately, blixes don't work as well as separate bleach and fixer steps.

The stabilizer/final rinse step is optional (hence two or three steps if you omit it), but without it you're likely to get water marks -- this step is a lot like Photo Flo for B&W processing. Dead Link Removed includes formalin or formaldehyde, which helps maintain image stability for older films. Newer films don't need this, so Dead Link Removed omits it, but I believe it includes some other stuff besides Photo Flo. You can safely use stabilizer with both old and new films, but final rinse is best used only with newer films. OTOH, stabilizer is a bit nastier because of the formaldehyde, so you should be more careful about how you use it (wear gloves, for instance).

The developer and bleach both now seem to be sold only in starter and replenisher packaging, at least by Adorama. Officially, you'd use starter and add replenisher to get a working solution, and you could then dump some of that solution after processing and add more replenisher to restore proper activity. This is great for big commercial operations, but it's less than ideal for hobbyist use, where one-shot use is more convenient. (An exception: Bleach is pretty expensive, and it lasts a long time. I use bleach in a replenished way by dumping ~70ml per roll and adding bleach replenisher up to the original quantity.) I've only been following Kodak's product line changes rather casually, so I'm not sure if they still make products in the one-shot form. You could always buy some of the starter and replenisher for each of these from Adorama, but you'll end up buying huge quantities -- for instance, 12.5 gallons is the minimum bleach replenisher size.

The fixer, stabilizer, and final rinse descriptions at Adorama all mark the products as being replenishers, with no starter product listed. AFAIK, these are all suitable for use directly; just ignore the word "replenisher" in the item descriptions. I've heard of people using bleach replenisher without starter, but I didn't pay too much attention to those discussions, so I don't know what the best procedure is or if there are significant caveats.

I haven't checked them recently, but Calumet and Unique Photo have both sold Kodak C-41 chemistry in the past, so you might try them.

Another alternative is non-Kodak C-41 chemistry. Freestyle sells Silver Pixel and Unicolor chemistry, including separate bleach and fixer (although only in fairly large quantities). An eBay seller called bigalfish also sells Silver Pixel chemistry. B&H sells Tetenal kits, but they use a blix rather than separate bleach and fixer. (B&H also sells Kodak chemistry, but won't ship some items.)

Overall, you may want to start out with a hobbyist kit, despite the fact that it uses a blix. This will enable you to familiarize yourself with the process without investing in hundreds of dollars of oversized products that you may not use if you decide not to continue, or that might go bad before you can use it even if you do continue. If you decide you want to keep doing C-41, you'll be able to either keep buying the kit if you're satisfied with it or switch to something with separate bleach and fixer. FWIW, I personally use a mix-it-yourself C-41 developer (since that's what goes bad most quickly and I don't want to buy one of those huge 5-gallon kits of the stuff) with store-bought bleach and fixer.
 

nickandre

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I started with the Tetenal C41 kit which was a one liter powder kit and I'm now using 10 gallon chemistry. One itsy bitsy problem: kodak discontinued bleach III, so you're going to have a VERY TOUGH TIME finding a bleach. I would use the Tetenal kit and if you want you can seperate the blix into the bleach and fix. I use a water bath in a plastic tub and hold the temperature at 102 ish, you can adjust that depending on the drop between that and your tank. I started out with full gloves and gave that up on roll 2.
 

Skorzen

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I had basically the same question as the original poster, one question though, I have seen a couple references to splitting the bleach and fix with the Tetenal kit. How does this work? I think I read that there are two parts to the blix portion, is it basical just one part bleach and one part fix?
 

nickandre

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I used it once and I'm pretty sure. They're easy to tell apart. One turns to a dark opaque color, the other clear. It comes in an AB mix and i think if you mix the two parts in different bottles you'll be fine.
 

AgX

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I once asked PE about whether it would make sense taking apart a blix-set to make seperate bleach and fix, and he answered he could not comment on that as he never tested that.
 

nickandre

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When I used it I used the blix and it worked great. I ran a ton of rolls through the blix even after the developer went. Held up fine.
 

Nigel

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I would contemplate doing c-41 at home if I could limit to only buying the developer. I would use E-6 bleach and fix. Alternately, if c-41 came in a convenient kit that did not rely on blix, that too would be an option. Although, as I understand it, E-6 bleach and fix would work, it isn't optimal. So, although I continue to do E-6 at home, $5.50 process only for 1 hour service at a pro-lab that is about a ten minute walk from home means I will not likely do c-41 for a while.
 

AgX

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Keeping Blix apart

I once asked PE about whether it would make sense taking apart a blix-set to make seperate bleach and fix, and he answered he could not comment on that as he never tested that.

I found a statement out of the 80ties by the head of research of the Tetenal works on this issue.

He statet that except for the mono-kits Blix concentrates are typically made up by an reddish ammonia-iron-EDTA and a colourless hypo compound.
Mixing those would yield a ph of between 6.0 and 6.4. Mixing working solution from the bleach concentrate would yield a ph of about 7.0.
By adding acidic acid to the bleach to adjust the ph a seperate bleach solution can be be gained he said. Care should be taken not to add too much acid as otherwise the forming of cyan-dye would suffer.
 

Photo Engineer

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Well, first off a blix is made of ingredients that interact with each other. If you split them apart, the activity of each part is somewhat reduced. You see, a bleach contains halide ion to rehalogenate the silver, but a blix does not as the hypo is there at the time it is needed. Therefore, separation should slow each part down.

Making a blix out of a bleach and a fix dilutes both parts by adding more water. You have bleach - dilute it, then you have fix -dilute it and then mix those together. If you have a real blix, you have to mix it with less water than otherwise.

However, when you mix Ferric EDTA and Hypo in a strength enough to blix film, it is so strong that the blix begins to deteriorate. This shortens the life.

In the end, to get good life, you have to dilute the solution and then it is not strong enough for most films, only for paper. That was our finding at EK during R&D of this. We only found one family of Blix formulations suitable for film and that is found in our patents. There are secondary families that we found (also in the patent) of descending activity and stability or both.

I suggest Flexicolor bleach III and Flexicolor fix. The pH of each of these is about 6.5 or thereabouts, which is optimum for overall stability.

PE
 

nickandre

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I suggest Flexicolor bleach III and Flexicolor fix. The pH of each of these is about 6.5 or thereabouts, which is optimum for overall stability.

PE

Just a friendly reminder that kodak "canned" bleach III a few months ago. I think B&H has a few in stock if you want to drive there.
 

Photo Engineer

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Then make up your own.

Bleach can be made from 60% Ammonium Ferric EDTA, NH4Br, and Sodium Sulfite and EDTA.2Na. Adjust to pH 6.5.

I have given the formula or one close elsewhere.

Bleach III is the same except for using NTA instead of EDTA as it has lower BOD and COD. Starter is not needed for any bleach or fix.

PE
 

Lopaka

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Just a friendly reminder that kodak "canned" bleach III a few months ago. I think B&H has a few in stock if you want to drive there.

The ready-made gallons have been discontinued. Bleach III is still available in larger packs that require mixing and the use of a starter to make 'tank' solution. Yes, it makes it more difficult for small volume home users, but I thoght a clarification was in order.

Bob
 

Skorzen

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The ready-made gallons have been discontinued. Bleach III is still available in larger packs that require mixing and the use of a starter to make 'tank' solution. Yes, it makes it more difficult for small volume home users, but I thoght a clarification was in order.

Bob

I have seen this stuff listed as needing a starter, and PE says that no starter is needed for any bleach, PE can you confirm that the larger "tank" bleach does not need a starter? Is the starter just to help it last?
 

Photo Engineer

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Starter is essential for making developers act like seasoned developer for replenished systems, but bleach is a "go to completion" reaction and as such the starter merely seasons it with some chemicals introduced by the processing of film. It is not needed. You may need to adjust your bleach time upwards a tad, say by 1 minute, but that is about it.

PE
 

Vonder

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Wow

I would contemplate doing c-41 at home if I could limit to only buying the developer. I would use E-6 bleach and fix. Alternately, if c-41 came in a convenient kit that did not rely on blix, that too would be an option. Although, as I understand it, E-6 bleach and fix would work, it isn't optimal. So, although I continue to do E-6 at home, $5.50 process only for 1 hour service at a pro-lab that is about a ten minute walk from home means I will not likely do c-41 for a while.

I live in a fortunate place, it seems. My pro lab does develop only c-41 for $2.50!
 

stevewillard

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Kodak now recommends using FLEXICOLOR SM chemistry for one-shot drum processing. The publication that shows this is www.kodak.com/global/en/business/retailPhoto/products/chemicals/flexicolor1.jhtml?pq-path=12549. I believe the quantities are 10L bottles (I think) which is about 2.5 gallons.

All FLEXICOLOR SM chemistry is premixed so there is no mixing, and it has oxidations inhibitors in it for low utilization

I have had really good luck storing color developers in floating lid containers. I stored 13L of Kodak RA4 RT replenisher in a floating lid container for 8 months and had 1L left over, and it was still clear.

All FLEXICOLOR SM chemistry is premixed so there is no mixing, and it has oxidations inhibitors in it for low utilization which is similar to RA4 RT developer, so again, it should store well in a floating lid container. I still have tree Kodak one gallon kits for C-41, so I have not used the FLEXICOLOR SM chemistry yet. However, I may order some and make a characteristic curve (CC) using both chemistries to see if there are any differences. I then will store the remaining developer in a floating lid container and inspect it once a month and monitor any color changes that indicate oxidation. I will probably also make CCs for each month to more accurately determine how long the developer will last in a floating lid container.

You can get FLEXICOLOR SM from Denver Pro Photo. Their prices are not bad, but not as good as B&H. According to Kodak you can use the bleach twice without compromising its performance, but I would call Kodak about this because that was the bleach III one gallon mix. I do not know if that would work with the Bleach SM chemistry. Denver Pro Photo will ship anywhere, and their number is (866)-360-4940. Ask for Victor.
 
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MikeSeb

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Sourcing Flexicolor SM chemistry is proving to be quite difficult, as I've moaned about in one or more posts here recently. I'm resigned to buying large quantities of the other C-41 stuff, and mixing in smaller amounts as is outlined in Kodak publication Z-131. It has worked fine but it's a pain. I now have enough fixer to see me through to the Apocalypse (or Election Day, assuming they aren't the same), and I'm set for developer for now.

Bleach however is my next issue. Alas, it seems to be the priciest C-41 component; luckily for me bleach keeps forever (and fixer almost as long.) Those who stock it don't ship it (B&H); those who might ship it don't seem to stock it (Adorama, Calumet). I'm going with Trebla for the bleach and probably developer when my stock runs out or goes bad. I've been in direct contact with Trebla (Nashville) and they'll ship anywhere. They do charge hazmat but I'm resigned to it; the cost per liter/gal of working solution, including shipping and hazmat, is still quite a bit less than buying the Flexicolor III or SM bleach in ready-to-use form in small amounts.

Anyone who wants the Trebla contact, please PM.
 

Photo Engineer

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Instead of using the expensive Bleach III, or the expensive Ammonium Ferric EDTA solution to make up a bleach, you might try making it from Ammonium Hydroxide, H4EDTA (the acid form), and Ferric Chloride. This was the original way I made the bleaches and blixes at Kodak before the method to make Ammonium Ferric EDTA was worked out by Surash and Stephen. It is a lot less expensive and a little slower in action, but it does work.

PE
 

stevewillard

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Instead of using the expensive Bleach III, or the expensive Ammonium Ferric EDTA solution to make up a bleach, you might try making it from Ammonium Hydroxide, H4EDTA (the acid form), and Ferric Chloride. This was the original way I made the bleaches and blixes at Kodak before the method to make Ammonium Ferric EDTA was worked out by Surash and Stephen. It is a lot less expensive and a little slower in action, but it does work.

PE

PE, can you make a recommendation for the time needed for processing this alternative less expensive Bleach?
 

Photo Engineer

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Use about 10 - 12 minutes at 100 F (38 C).

You need 1.1 mole of EDTA acid, 4.4 moles of Ammonium Hydroxide, 0.9 M of Ferric Chloride and the pH should be about 6.5. The EDTA acid (versene) should be a slurry in cold water. The ammonium hydroxide (28%) should be added very slowly as it can heat up quickly. When dissolved and the pH is about 4.5 - 6, add the Ferric Chloride in a small amount of water. You should aim for a 40% - 60% solution.

Be careful, this is an acid base reaction. It can generate heat and spatter. If it turns brown or gets a colored precipitate, you have made it too alkaline during the iron addition and ferric hydroxide has formed. The bleach will not work in this case.

I have not made this since about 1966, so I have no details.

PE
 

srs5694

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Bleach however is my next issue. Alas, it seems to be the priciest C-41 component; luckily for me bleach keeps forever (and fixer almost as long.) Those who stock it don't ship it (B&H); those who might ship it don't seem to stock it (Adorama, Calumet). I'm going with Trebla for the bleach

Three more possible sources: Freestyle sells Silver Pixel bleach, but only in 2x5-liter packages for $95, which is a bit pricey. Photo Systems Inc. (an eBay seller) has sold bleach in the past, although I don't see any listed in their store at the moment. You could try e-mailing them. Unique Photo sells Kodak, Fuji, and some other manufacturers' bleaches. I think I've bought bleach from them (and had it shipped), but I'm not 100% positive of that. (It might have been Flexicolor fixer I bought from them.) IMHO, the Unique Photo Web site is awful, but a search on "bleach" turns up matching products.
 
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