Kodak Fixer with hardener

I have an old package of kodak fixer with hardener that I would like to use up.
Is the hardener incorporated into the powder or was there an additional package with the hardener in it?
If so what wash times should I give to film and paper ?
My recollection of old Ilford powders had the hardener added after mixing the fixer!

In most cases it would be a single package with the hardener incorprated.
For washing I'd suggest adding a hypo clear bath or extend the washing time per Kodak's instruction.
Kodak seems to have a special powder-making technology which allows them to put everything in a single package like D76 and the hardening fixer without causing mixing problems.

Corn_Zhou said:

In most cases it would be a single package with the hardener incorprated.
For washing I'd suggest adding a hypo clear bath or extend the washing time per Kodak's instruction.
Kodak seems to have a special powder-making technology which allows them to put everything in a single package like D76 and the hardening fixer without causing mixing problems.

Click to expand...

I agree!

The common Kodak Fixer has hardener. Is useful to keep fiber paper from sticking to dryer belts and such. Hypo clearing agent helps with washing. Really no good (ordinary) reason to use hardener for RC paper or film. Hardener definitely slows the washing process.

From the old datasheets for the T-Max films:
Note: To keep fixing times as short as possible, we strongly
recommend using KODAK Rapid Fixer. If you use another
fixer, such as KODAK Fixer or KODAFIX Solution, fix for
5 to 10 minutes or twice the time it takes for the film to clear.
You can check the film for clearing after 3 minutes in
KODAK Rapid Fixer or 5 minutes in KODAK Fixer or
KODAFIX Solution.
Important: Your fixer will be exhausted more rapidly with
this film than with other films. If your negatives show a
magenta (pink) stain after fixing, your fixer may be near
exhaustion, or you may not have used a long enough time. If
the stain is slight, it will not affect image stability, negative
contrast, or printing times. You can remove a slight pink stain
with KODAK Hypo Clearing Agent. However, if the stain is
pronounced and irregular over the film surface, refix the film
in fresh fixer.
Wash for 20 to 30 minutes in running water at 70 to
85°F (21 to 29°C) with a flow rate that provides at least one
complete change of water in 5 minutes. To save time and
conserve water, use KODAK Hypo Clearing Agent

And from the corresponding datasheet for Plus-X:
FINAL STEPS 65 to 75°F (18 to 24°C).
KODAK Indicator Stop Bath 0:30 KODAK EKTAFLO Stop Bath 0:30
Fix—with frequent agitation:
KODAK Fixer 5:00 to 10:00
KODAK Rapid Fixer 2:00 to 4:00
KODAFIX Solution 2:00 to 4:00
KODAK POLYMAX T Fixer (1:3) 2:00 to 4:00
Wash: Running Water 20:00 to 30:00
—OR—
Rinse with water 0:30
KODAK Hypo Clearing Agent 1:00 to 2:00
Running water 5:00
If you do much print toning using a toning regime where further fixing is called for - e.g. sepia toning - using a hardening fixer is a good idea, because the toning process tends to soften emulsions.

I used to use the dry Kodafix non-rapid fixer with hardener. I was under the impression it helped protect the film, I'm not sure if it's true. It's all in one bag.

I may be imagining it, but I think this fixer made the film a bit curlier. Possibly an effect of the hardener?

I use alkaline rapid fixer now. But I still keep a package of this dry stuff around in case I ever find myself with exhausted fixer or accidentally pour it down the drain instead of back into its bottle.

loccdor said:

...
I use alkaline rapid fixer now. But I still keep a package of this dry stuff around in case I ever find myself with exhausted fixer or accidentally pour it down the drain instead of back into its bottle.

Click to expand...

I use to develop with two SS tanks (two 120 reels each) and start developing the second tank a few minutes after starting the first tank. Efficient, but too prone to mental errors. And I could get my other motor base out and run two Jobo Expert Drums at once, but why tempt fate.

For a couple batches of 8x10 FP4+ in a Jobo 3005 Expert Drum, I was having what looked like some strange deposit on the non-emulsion side that I could not get rid of. The deposits tended to be running length-wise down the center of the sheet. I was using a fixer with a hardener. I switched to a non-hardening fix (everything else the same) and no longer had that problem.

I have a guess or two why, but not the knowledge to back them up. Somehow I think that some layer on the non-emulsion side of the film is not getting totally removed in the drum during development/stop bath (film touching the drum), and the hardener in the fix was hardening the left over gelatin of this layer on the film.

But I have seen diagrams of film with the anti-halation layer being on either side of the film base, and anti-curl layers also on the non-emulsion side. I believe sheet film may have a gelatin-encased anti-halation layer on the backside of the film (and 35mm has it as part of the emulsion layers).

Melvin J Bramley said:

I have an old package of kodak fixer with hardener that I would like to use up.
Is the hardener incorporated into the powder or was there an additional package with the hardener in it?
If so what wash times should I give to film and paper ?
My recollection of old Ilford powders had the hardener added after mixing the fixer!

Click to expand...

It's has been a single package for as long as I can recall (50+ years).

Be aware that it will take a lot longer to clear film than alkaline fixers.

Also, if you use it to fix fiber prints, the fixing time is longer than, say, Hypam, and thus you'll need both a clearing agent of some sort like PermaWash or Kodak Hypo Clearing Agent, and a healthy wash time.

I keep it around just "in case", specifically for soft emulsion films like Efke. Other than that, I use TF-4 for film and Hypam for paper. I am thinking about using Hypam for both, though, because I don't think the TF-4 is bringing anything special to the table.

in the 1960s Kodak fixer was all most places sold for fixer, (came in a yellow cardboard box) then the rapid fixers came out. the hardener function is part of the mix. and back in the 60s RC paper was not all that common if sold to consumers at all.

over the years, May and Baker (had a cute name that I forget) , Edwal Quick-fix and Illford rapid fixer have graced my darkroom cupboard.

Not Rapid Fix!

Melvin J Bramley said:

I have an old package of kodak fixer with hardener that I would like to use up.
Is the hardener incorporated into the powder or was there an additional package with the hardener in it?
If so what wash times should I give to film and paper ?
My recollection of old Ilford powders had the hardener added after mixing the fixer!

Click to expand...

Using a hardening fixer is discouraged because it takes longer to wash the fixer out. This would stop me from buying it but would not stop me from using existing materials up. For archival purposes, I'd recommend doubling the recommended wash times.

Kodak liquid fixer was a two bottle affaire, so you could take your decision, one way or another.

Kodak Powdered Fix is something I used on a regular, until I found Photographer's Formulary and Ilford's Rapid Fixer, or Ilford and then P.F. tf-4.

Plain Hypo or Fix from Sodium Pentahydrate is always a great standby in its dry forum, in case you've used your last yellow bag of Kodak.

I've not used the dry stuff in years, though I think I have a gallon bag in the darkroom.

IMO.

Melvin J Bramley said:

Not Rapid Fix!

Click to expand...

Yes, rapid fixer! Although not the Ilford product, "Rapid Fixer," nor "Hypam," what you have appears to be an ammonium-thiosulfate-based fixer for machine processing of RC papers, and in the category of rapid fixers. The literature I can find recommends a 1+3 dilution instead of the 1+4 dilutions for Rapid Fixer and Hypam, so it is a bit more concentrated than those two. Fixing times I have seen are the same for all three.

Again, what you have is likely very old and unusable due to sufuring out. If there is any precipitate, floating particles or deposit, discard this and get a jug of new fixer.

Best,

Doremus

eli griggs said:

Kodak liquid fixer was a two bottle affaire, so you could take your decision, one way or another.

Click to expand...

There are actually two versions of Kodak liquid fixer.
One version - Kodak Rapid Fixer - is sold in two parts. The one quart packages include a separate small bottle of part B hardener, which can be added or omitted. Larger package sizes are/were available, and for those the Part A and Part B are/were sold separately.
Here is the current listing for that product: https://kodak.photosys.com/collections/kodak/products/kodak-professional-rapid-fixer-to-make-1-gal
The other version is liquid Kodafix, which is/was sold as Polymax fixer in some parts of the world. It is sold in 1 quart sizes, is a rapid fixer, and it does include hardener.
Here is the current listing for that product: https://kodak.photosys.com/collecti...dak-professional-kodafix-solution-to-make-1gl

MattKing said:

There are actually two versions of Kodak liquid fixer.
One version - Kodak Rapid Fixer - is sold in two parts. The one quart packages include a separate small bottle of part B hardener, which can be added or omitted. Larger package sizes are/were available, and for those the Part A and Part B are/were sold separately.
Here is the current listing for that product: https://kodak.photosys.com/collections/kodak/products/kodak-professional-rapid-fixer-to-make-1-gal
The other version is liquid Kodafix, which is/was sold as Polymax fixer in some parts of the world. It is sold in 1 quart sizes, is a rapid fixer, and it does include hardener.
Here is the current listing for that product: https://kodak.photosys.com/collecti...dak-professional-kodafix-solution-to-make-1gl

Click to expand...

Great to know, I was only aware of the single liquid "A&B" type Kodak fixer.

Cheers!