Kodak Files for Bankruptcy Protection 1/18/2012

Sal Santamaura · Feb 3, 2012

Photo Engineer said:
...my wife started teaching at 21 and could have retired at 51. Neat! I could have used that. She could not stand the stress and quit. She became a private secretary. So...... it begs the issue...

The issue seems to have been that public employee unions result in burdensome "entitlements." You previously noted that we agreed about police and firefighting positions justifying shorter careers because of the health effects that go along with them. Now you've mentioned that teaching is more stressful than private-sector work. Perhaps that career also deserves 20-year retirements?

Photo Engineer said:
...You can pick my arguments apart all you wish, but it does not change the fact that CA is broke, Kodak is Broke, the system is broke and the list goes on and on. I don't care to pick anyone apart in detail as the situation is too diffuse to do that...One statement of fact cannot express the problems. But, we must fix the generic problem...Have fun with this one...

I'm not writing just to pick apart your arguments. Rather, these posts are attempts to point out that there isn't a simplistic, generic problem as the corporate media would have everyone believe. There are many problems. Each has one or more causes and effects. It's important to evaluate our problems analytically, postulate reasonable solutions and try them out for efficacy. Sort of like systematically approaching challenges in the lab.

Tim Gray said:
...I'll probably never get to retire. Not because people won't be allowed to, but cancer will probably get me before I turn 73 or whatever the SS age limit will be raised to in 30-40 years.

Social Security can be fixed quite easily. Simply modify the FICA withholding so it's flat rather than regressive. Currently, anyone earning more than $110,100 per year stops paying into Social Security. End that limit so FICA becomes a "flat tax." This one change would keep the system solvent and able to pay 100% of promised benefits for the next 75 years while maintaining the age for full retirement benefits at 67. I think you'd be able to collect quite a bit.

Photo Engineer said:
...One of my friends who left EK said that he needed $6 - 8M to retire at 65...

He's one of the many abusers of "the n word." Nobody needs that much to retire. Wants, perhaps, but in no way needs.

Photo Engineer said:
...The fact that you have doubts is the best indicator of a broken system...

Tim Gray said:
I'm guessing you and I think they are broken for different reasons.

I suspect you're right.

Sal Santamaura · Feb 3, 2012

ciocc said:
They're not broken for the guy I met out on the golf course here in CA. He retired from the Corrections Department at age 50 with a 125,000/year pension. He's now working as a consultant. Certainly not typical of CA government employees to be sure, as the vast majority of CA state employees won't retire at that age and with nowhere near that pension. But guys like this one get all the attention in the media when articles are written about the pension system in CA needing to be reformed.

He could very well fall under the exception I posted earlier:

Sal Santamaura said:
...In general, excepting cases of criminal conduct...

There have been quite a few of those cases recently.

ciocc · Feb 3, 2012

Sal Santamaura said:
He could very well fall under the exception I posted earlier:

There have been quite a few of those cases recently.

Nope. Just a highly paid government official who was quite high in the food chain. When he reached that position, he brought up a couple of friends of his with him. They were on the golf course too with us and they are each pulling in over 100K in pension/year.

Sal Santamaura · Feb 3, 2012

ciocc said:
They're not broken for the guy I met out on the golf course here in CA. He retired from the Corrections Department at age 50 with a 125,000/year pension. He's now working as a consultant. Certainly not typical of CA government employees to be sure, as the vast majority of CA state employees won't retire at that age and with nowhere near that pension. But guys like this one get all the attention in the media when articles are written about the pension system in CA needing to be reformed.

Sal Santamaura said:
He could very well fall under the exception I posted earlier

Sal Santamaura said:
In general, excepting cases of criminal conduct

ciocc said:
Nope. Just a highly paid government official who was quite high in the food chain. When he reached that position, he brought up a couple of friends of his with him. They were on the golf course too with us and they are each pulling in over 100K in pension/year.

If there was no criminal conduct associated with "bringing up a couple of friends with him" or "spiking" his earnings in the final year of employment and if his salary was commensurate with being "quite high in the food chain," then, regardless of the dollar amount, his pension is proportional deferred compensation as defined by the employment arrangement he worked under. Eligibility to begin collecting that pension at age 50 is something to question. Did he, like the teacher example discussed previously, have 30 years of service when retiring? If so, state rationale for such eligibility might be that, even with the high pension amount, it's less expensive to hire a "cheaper" replacement and pay them a lower salary. The total of retiree pension and replacement salary is less than retiree's salary was. If not, that provision allowing retirement at 50 should certainly be considered for elimination.

In situations like this where pension benefits are high, the root cause is frequently excessive compensation of upper management, irrespective of whether one is discussing public or private sector managers. Paying those folks so many multiples of what average workers earn is a sickness that's spread, to the detriment of everyone else, throughout our economy. It needs to be rectified. For some perspective, listen to what John Reed had to say on the subject:

http://billmoyers.com/segment/john-reed-on-big-banks-power-and-influence/

The entire interview's interesting, but the part most relevant to my point runs from 19:30 through 22:00.

Photo Engineer · Feb 3, 2012

Sal, the post about the retired Corrections Department employee just about proves my point. There are many such here in NYS and apparently in CA as well. News reports show many such cases.

As for teaching, I didn't say anything about stress per se. I pointed out that they were underpaid to start with and had more admin burden to cope with. But by the same token, many teachers are underperforming too. I have talked to many math and science teachers who are under trained for teaching these subjects and most of them have poor writing and spelling skills.

By the same token, most students today are poor in math, science and English. Their writing is, for the most part, pretty poor as well.

So, perhaps the teachers are overstressed, but they are made so by the environment imposed on them which could be changed, unlike the firemen and policemen who face an environment which essentially cannot be changed.

PE

Tim Gray · Feb 3, 2012

Maybe if teachers were paid better and weren't shit on by practically everyone in our society, school systems might attract better teachers? The people who are properly trained to teach math and science, for the most part, don't want to be school teachers because the pay isn't that good.

The whole discussion of teachers underperforming pisses me off. If I hear one more time, 'They'd just get fired in the business world,' I might scream. I have dealt with SO MANY incompetent people in the business world. And I'm talking about highly technical, specialized companies where you think the sales representatives might actually know something about their product. Good luck with that. I usually know more about the thing than they do. In fact, I can't really remember the last time I had a really great positive experience with a company representative. And the stories my girlfriend tells me of lazy, incompetent, and underperforming people in her work place (technical, private sector energy company)...

Guess what? There are underperforming people in every aspect of life. Instead of vilifying specific groups, maybe we should just accept that fact.

Sal Santamaura · Feb 3, 2012

Photo Engineer said:
...So, perhaps the teachers are overstressed, but they are made so by the environment imposed on them which could be changed, unlike the firemen and policemen who face an environment which essentially cannot be changed...

On that we completely agree.

There are so many things we've covered which could be changed. A single problem description to cover all the issues cannot be formulated; as close as I can come is that most people aren't willing to do the hard work of analyzing and correcting things. Instead, they seek simplistic explanations (the blame game, mostly) with easy, quick fixes, and they want 'someone else' to implement the solutions at no cost to them.

To repeat something previously posted:

"I feel much better since I gave up hope."

DREW WILEY · Feb 3, 2012

It's all about the priorities we make as a society. I'm straight down the street from what some people rate as the top university in the world. Guess who makes three times as much as any nobel laureate and twice as much
as the Chancellor? - the fooball coach!

Photo Engineer · Feb 3, 2012

Tim;

Good post. Yes, and incompetence in business is what this thread is all about! Top Kodak management, making millions each year, have made the fatal errors, but there are errors at all levels.

Drew;

Yes, the coach! Right on. And today, a High School student who is failing can remain on any team if he/she is a good player. In my day, a failing grade got you off the team.

As I said, things are broken.

PE

clayne · Feb 3, 2012

Things are broken because integrity has been traded in for the dollar.

michaelbsc · Feb 3, 2012

For decades I have maintained that we should only allow teachers in the classroom who have 10-15 years of work experience elsewhere. Not because I think every 22 year old is incompetent. I don't think that. But because I think we need to bring real world work experience to the lap of the children.

railwayman3 · Feb 3, 2012

(

michaelbsc said:
For decades I have maintained that we should only allow teachers in the classroom who have 10-15 years of work experience elsewhere. Not because I think every 22 year old is incompetent. I don't think that. But because I think we need to bring real world work experience to the lap of the children.

This is so true, here in the UK as well, and particularly now that jobs are scarce and useful real-world teaching and knowledge is important for children.

(I remember my late Father speaking of teachers in schools between the 1950's and 1967's...the majority had seen war service in WW2, they knew how to interest and motivate children and gave them knowledge, interests and social skills which serve them and improve their lives right up to today. The best 22-year-old, straight from college, just can't be expected to be able to do this.)

AlbertZeroK · Feb 3, 2012

michaelbsc said:
For decades I have maintained that we should only allow teachers in the classroom who have 10-15 years of work experience elsewhere. Not because I think every 22 year old is incompetent. I don't think that. But because I think we need to bring real world work experience to the lap of the children.

You would think, but I've had more issues with my daughter's teacher than last year and last year the teacher had 1 year experience,

AlbertZeroK · Feb 3, 2012

railwayman3 said:
(

This is so true, here in the UK as well, and particularly now that jobs are scarce and useful real-world teaching and knowledge is important for children.

(I remember my late Father speaking of teachers in schools between the 1950's and 1967's...the majority had seen war service in WW2, they knew how to interest and motivate children and gave them knowledge, interests and social skills which serve them and improve their lives right up to today. The best 22-year-old, straight from college, just can't be expected to be able to do this.)

Be careful, you know the old saying, "Those who can't do, teach. Those who can't teach, teach Gym."

I don't think though the problem is teaching, the problem is what we teach. I don't need to know everything, just where to find it. Real world experiance is just that, experiance. But I've interviewed many people from ECPI for computer tech jobs that shouldn't have even graduated!!

Alan W · Feb 3, 2012

What happened to the film thread?I've been away for a while and this is what happens?

keithwms · Feb 3, 2012

Okay you went and got me started! Watch out...

I have been trying for ages to get certain administrators to realize how important it is that our educational institutions refocus on real world skills, as opposed to the google-based two-dimensional learning that so many kids get now (and pay dearly to get). In fact, one of my recent rants is (there was a url link here which no longer exists). N.b. the title isn't mine; that was invented by a somewhat overzealous newspaper editor.

When it comes to teaching, I can report that in much of American higher ed, if you tell your department that you want to teach practical skills because that's what the students really need, people look at you like what wormhole did you climb out of? You may as well tell them that you want to teach machine shop classes. My god, haven't you realized that what our kids really need to learn is how to run the world from their smartphones....! I have nevertheless taught very practical material in my courses e.g. how to make ethanol from corn, biodiesel from waste veg oil, how to make turbines and solar cells etc. Not welcome material in a modern Ivy-wannabe American university But guess what, it's what the students actually want.... and what the economy wants too.

CGW · Feb 3, 2012

Alan W said:
What happened to the film thread?I've been away for a while and this is what happens?

It's an election year. New cans/dogs to kick. Besides, everyone was tired of flaunting their ignorance about Kodak, so it's on to new adventures now!

Tim Gray · Feb 3, 2012

Of course, they'll get paid accordingly, right? Who in their right mind would want to leave a field that they've put 15 years into for a job that starts out at $35k? You and I both know that for a variety of reasons, the system won't support higher starting pay for teachers.

Education's funny because we can all sit here and think up 'solutions' for how to fix the system because we've all been through the system. Incompetent teachers? Make them all have Ph.D.s! Not enough real world experience? 10 years minimum! So on and so forth. The fact of the matter is that people 'competent' in math and science for the most part don't want to teach because they have better opportunities elsewhere. I know a lot of those people. I also know about 10 people who went to one of the top schools in the country and majored in education. Only one of them ever taught (he still teaches). The rest had better opportunities out of the classroom and wisely pursued them.

I had plenty of crummy teachers in the 90's. I also had plenty of great ones who loved what they did, motivated kids, and generally did a wonderful job. If you think the best 22 year old, straight from college, can't do that, then you clearly haven't met the best 22 year olds.

michaelbsc · Feb 3, 2012

railwayman3 said:
(

This is so true, here in the UK as well, and particularly now that jobs are scarce and useful real-world teaching and knowledge is important for children.

(I remember my late Father speaking of teachers in schools between the 1950's and 1967's...the majority had seen war service in WW2, they knew how to interest and motivate children and gave them knowledge, interests and social skills which serve them and improve their lives right up to today. The best 22-year-old, straight from college, just can't be expected to be able to do this.)

The best teacher I had throughout my entire school career was a retired Air Force bomber pilot. One of the character building stories (no judgement toward our German friends) was about being the sole survivor down behind the lines in France traveling the underground speaking neither French nor German. It's too long to post here, but it is not the kind of experience someone who has "only classroom" experience can bring to bear in interpreting an event.

He was also a very good man for a 13 year old boy to go ask advice that you weren't comfortable asking your parents. And you knew it was as confidential as a priest without going to the priest.

Today he'd probably be sued by a schiester lawyer. Good thing he passed away before he ever saw this day.

MB

AlbertZeroK · Feb 3, 2012

keithwms said:
Okay you went and got me started! Watch out...

I have been trying for ages to get certain administrators to realize how important it is that our educational institutions refocus on real world skills, as opposed to the google-based two-dimensional learning that so many kids get now (and pay dearly to get). In fact, one of my recent rants is (there was a url link here which no longer exists). N.b. the title isn't mine; that was invented by a somewhat overzealous newspaper editor.

When it comes to teaching, I can report that in much of American higher ed, if you tell your department that you want to teach practical skills because that's what the students really need, people look at you like what wormhole did you climb out of? You may as well tell them that you want to teach machine shop classes. My god, haven't you realized that what our kids really need to learn is how to run the world from their smartphones....! I have nevertheless taught very practical material in my courses e.g. how to make ethanol from corn, biodiesel from waste veg oil, how to make turbines and solar cells etc. Not welcome material in a modern Ivy-wannabe American university But guess what, it's what the students actually want.... and what the economy wants too.

LOL. I didn't say you should not learn anything, but you are correct, children are not receiving the fundamentals. The most useful class I EVER took, was a troubleshooting class in the US NAVY. It started with how to break down a system into parts and troubleshoot efficiently. Now that would absolutely be worth while in school, for anything from my lights won't turn on to fixing complex computing issues.

Complexity doesn't annoy me, in fact, I was happy last night with 7 different film canisters developing 7 different types of film in the dark room at school. I rather enjoyed the complexity and the challenge it added. But more importantly, I was not afraid of it.

holmburgers · Feb 3, 2012

Unrelated to what you guys are talking about now, but in case it hasn't been posted yet, here's an interesting read about Rochester.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/03/opinion/rochesters-survival-lessons.html?src=me&ref=general

This line made me think about Ron, "Yet another asset is Rochesters cultural institutions. Many highly skilled former Kodak workers chose to stay because of the amenities inspired by Eastmans philanthropy, including the Eastman School of Music, the Rochester Philharmonic and the International Museum of Photography.

Thomas Bertilsson · Feb 3, 2012

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

I couldn't resist.

Photo Engineer · Feb 3, 2012

Alan W said:
What happened to the film thread?I've been away for a while and this is what happens?

If you read carefully, there is a connection to Kodak here!

PE

MattKing · Feb 3, 2012

I agree that teachers with military experience are a great idea - all teachers should have had previous experience being shot at!

Alan W · Feb 3, 2012

Photo Engineer said:
If you read carefully, there is a connection to Kodak here!

PE

I'll be willing to bet there's a Kevin Bacon connection too!

Kodak Files for Bankruptcy Protection 1/18/2012

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