Kodak Warning + Later Clarification

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Paul Verizzo

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How sad. But that's capitalistic life. Once upon a time, America had dozens of auto manufacturers. It got whittled down to GM, Ford, Chrysler, and American Motors. The latter folded many years ago.

Kodak's movie film business is a dinosaur. There is no film "look." Digital can do things film can't, such as a greatly expanded subject brightness ratio, and there's the matter that movies shot in film get digitized anyway.

I love T-Max film. Ilford's Delta is good, but I admit I don't have much experience there.

As others have suggested. there are probably a number of companies that would pay handsomely for the rights to make T-Max.
 

Paul Verizzo

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Kodak isn't a charitable cause. It's a commercial concern that was fundamentally mismanaged for years. The leadership there completely missed the impact of digital until it was simply too late.

In much the same way, Sears - which started out as a mail order business - was entirely way too late to the internet/eCommerce game.

In both cases, companies that had very clear first mover advantage, market leadership, a well established reputation, and a loyal customer base, completely eviscerated their advantages because their leadership was sclerotic, lacked vision, and didn't pay attention to a changing world.

Neither Kodak nor Sears were decimated by digital or the internet respectively. They were eviscerated by a lack of leadership imagination.

This why I favor having corporate execs be paid mostly in stock options and grants. Small salary, big potential back end. When leaders are long term owners, they pay far more attention. This is why I would hope that Kodak film could somehow find ownership - at least at the controlling stock level - that cares about the product and the customer base. Harmon, Adox, Foma et al might together create a consortium ownership model that would pay attention and be able to capitalize on Kodak's film making expertise and equipment.

Amen!
 

DREW WILEY

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Paul - Film can also do things digital can't. Some filmmakers apparently want a more authentic vintage look rather than the faux version. Car mfg? My Toyoto truck was made an hour away in what was at first a Ford plant; then after Numi (Toyta), it became the primary Tesla plant. Quite a few "foreign" cars are/were actually made in the US or nearby. One of the positive aspects of subcontracting a lot of auto components to northern Mexico is that, by giving well paid legit opportunities there, a lot of stress was relieved from the border. That factor seems to have been lost sight of.

I've tested Delta 100 as a substitute for TMax. The grain is somewhere between TMX100 and TMY400 in size. And you have to cut the speed down to 50 if you want Delta to approximate the long scale of TMX, way down into the shadows. It has more of a toe to it. And the spectral sensitivity is a little different, along with the filter factors, esp green filters. I'd far rather use TMX in high contrast situations; but I do have a Plan B if necessary.

Sears Slowbuck went the way of Monkey Ward. Toward the end, their desperate proposed merger with KMart was described as a sack race with two drunks in the same sack. Lack of motivation is an understatement.

Kodak didn't underestimate the impact of digital. They got in too soon. They outright bankrupted one of the biggest labs in this area. The equipment per se was excellent for its time, but they promoted it with long installment payment plans combined with mandatory expensive service contracts. After a few years, there was serious competition from less costly, yet more efficient, digital equipment makers. At that point, Kodak turned their back on their customers - they demanded continuing payments, but outright dropped their own maintenance obligation, rendering much of that gear useless. Word got around awfully fast among the photo lab trade, and nobody trusted them after that. Some of their Creo scanners are still in use.
 
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Osmdesat

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Sounds quite funny short after Kodak kicked out film respoolers. Can it be there some coincidence?
Or is it just a threat towards their creditors, something like "You better treat us nicely, or we will break down and you get nothing"?
Just my thoughts...
 

mshchem

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This requires R&D (if the products would have to be meaningfully different from the present ones) as well as launching costs, as well as the incurred costs of a broader product portfolio as there would be resistance if they also axed existing products. Those combined costs would have to be recouped from the added sales of these new products, taking into account cannibalization of existing product lines. Long story short - there's very little room for frequent product launches for EK in the still film arena.

Besides, what they really need to find an alternative revenue stream for is the offset plates. That is the pressing problem for them.

Pressing problem, as in offset press 😊

As far as new films, first Eastman Kodak needs to ask their direct customers, Alaris and Cinestill what is needed. I think Alaris was a prime mover for Ektachrome.
 

mshchem

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Sounds quite funny short after Kodak kicked out film respoolers. Can it be there some coincidence?
Or is it just a threat towards their creditors, something like "You better treat us nicely, or we will break down and you get nothing"?
Just my thoughts...

Just good business. Selling everything to anyone was a pandemic necessity.
 

Cholentpot

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Alaris is critical to Kodak. As critical as can be. Global distribution!!!

Kodak did it themselves before Alaris was around. Even if they can't dump them they should be able to sell their own line of film domestically. Eastman Films should be a thing. If I want to buy 1000 feet of cine film why can't I just ask Kodak to sell it to me? Alaris is making the mistake of 'Kodak is stealing sales from Kodak' Any film sold from Kodak is a bonus. Kodak should be cranking out as much and as cheaply as they can. You can't sell film if no one shoots film anymore because there's no film around.
 

gbroadbridge

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So much handwringing over what was nothing more than a statutory disclosure notice.

Kodak is fine, it's even made its way back to supermarket shelves and gas stations here such is the demand.
A whole new generation of photographers who want more than iphone snaps and AI.
 

Cholentpot

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So much handwringing over what was nothing more than a statutory disclosure notice.

Kodak is fine, it's even made its way back to supermarket shelves and gas stations here such is the demand.
A whole new generation of photographers who want more than iphone snaps and AI.

I'm not concerned about a report. I'm concerned that Kodak is missing the boat, damn the torpedoes and full speed ahead. Kodak should be saturating the market with good cheap film. Singles, bulk, anything and everything. Bring back the mail coupons for development and a free roll. Bring back the super affordable emulsions. Where's the budget educational line of Kodak B&W? They need to have a plan to get film into every photographers hand. Whether the shooter is interested or not. Build the notion for the future that film is an option to take photos, just like pens didn't go anywhere or paint brushes when computers took over. Kodak is limiting themselves. They should be dumping the stuff out there as fast as they can.
 

Ten301

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Alaris is a giant anvil around Kodak’s neck; they literally cannot run their business how they see fit. Kodak needs to declare bankruptcy and attempt to get the bankruptcy court to either cut Kodak loose from the Alaris obligation or greatly modify it in Kodak’s favor. Much easier said than done, I know, and I realize we are talking about retirements. I’m not cold nor oblivious. However, that was a different time, a time that no longer exists. If Kodak goes under no one will get anything but the lawyers.
 

Cholentpot

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Alaris is a giant anvil around Kodak’s neck; they literally cannot run their business how they see fit. Kodak needs to declare bankruptcy and attempt to get the bankruptcy court to either cut Kodak loose from the Alaris obligation or greatly modify it in Kodak’s favor. Much easier said than done, I know, and I realize we are talking about retirements. I’m not cold nor oblivious. However, that was a different time, a time that no longer exists. If Kodak goes under no one will get anything but the lawyers.

I agree. Kodak needs to be a bit ruthless if they want to extend into the future. Shame about the pensions but Kodak is not a retirement firm. If they continue to be primarily a pension fund they'll cease to exist and film in general will more or less die.

Kodak needs to do the 'wrong' thing here. Being nice is going to kill them. I feel like Kodak doesn't have the will to live. Just like I don't understand why they limit their options, where's the entire X line of b&w? Plus-X, Double-X and Tri-X should be the line. Yes we have Tmax 100, 400 and 800 but why not expand the options?
 

mshchem

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Kodak did it themselves before Alaris was around. Even if they can't dump them they should be able to sell their own line of film domestically. Eastman Films should be a thing. If I want to buy 1000 feet of cine film why can't I just ask Kodak to sell it to me? Alaris is making the mistake of 'Kodak is stealing sales from Kodak' Any film sold from Kodak is a bonus. Kodak should be cranking out as much and as cheaply as they can. You can't sell film if no one shoots film anymore because there's no film around.

Alaris is what remains of Kodak's distribution people.
 

gbroadbridge

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Kodak should be saturating the market with good cheap film. Singles, bulk, anything and everything.

That's pretty much what I'm seeing from where I sit. When I see Kodak film at big box stores and tech retailers, where there was none 12 months ago I don't see that they can go any faster.

As for cheap, well what was $5 in the 80's is pretty much $20 today which is the price I'm seeing for a single roll 35mm - that's just cost of living increases.
3 x Kodak Gold 200/400 24exp 35mm at $49. I don't see a problem with that. Kids today spend $8 on a cup of coffee.

I see Kodak and ilford being quite aggressive in getting product into stores - at least here.
 

chuckroast

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Alaris is what remains of Kodak's distribution people.

None of which are actually needed any longer. The whole world moved to eCommerce mediated sales. Companies like B&H, Freestyle, Amazon, Target, Zoro, Walmart, Sam's Club, eBay, etc. could be used as channels to market and Kodak could run a drop ship warehouse for a whole lot less than what they are likely paying now for a distribution network or even outsource that to a 3PL of some kind. They could focus on product innovation and support by getting rid of the obsolete distribution model they are currently using. I wonder how many end point retailers even see a Kodak rep anymore.

The world changed, Kodak's leadership has not (or not enough). Either that, or they are trying to figure out how to unburden themselves of the Alaris albatross with all this kerfuffle. (In which case I take it all back.)
 

BrianShaw

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Both Eastman Kodak and Kodak Alaris are about much more than film. I wonder if either concurs with the Photrio assessment. I’ll bet not…
 

DREW WILEY

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It's a relevant question how long people will be able to afford Kodak film unless the cut of middlemen is removed. Small shops depend on those, and also operate on a local convenience rather than competitive price basis. But serious users, especially of larger film sizes, really do need a break. The box of 8x10 color film I just thawed out from my freezer has gone up almost 800% from the time I bought it. And I can't afford to replace it with another box. Fortunately, my freezer stash might last me till I'm 80, and still remain good. At that point in time, will I want to still be lugging 8x10 gear anyway?

The cost differential for 4x5 is obviously 1/4 as much. In other words, cost-wise, 4x5 is the new 8x10.
 

Cholentpot

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Alaris is what remains of Kodak's distribution people.

Just like car dealerships, time to cut that business model out. I want to buy a car straight from Ford or Honda. Same should be for film.

That's pretty much what I'm seeing from where I sit. When I see Kodak film at big box stores and tech retailers, where there was none 12 months ago I don't see that they can go any faster.

As for cheap, well what was $5 in the 80's is pretty much $20 today which is the price I'm seeing for a single roll 35mm - that's just cost of living increases.
3 x Kodak Gold 200/400 24exp 35mm at $49. I don't see a problem with that. Kids today spend $8 on a cup of coffee.

I see Kodak and ilford being quite aggressive in getting product into stores - at least here.

Film was in no way $5 a roll in the 80's, maybe on paper but I remember there were always deals, and sales, and cheaper alternatives. $1.99 for the roll and .99 1 hour development at the minilab plus prints. I'm sure list price was $5 but I don't remember spending that much on a roll of film in the 90's or even the 00's.
 

gbroadbridge

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Film was in no way $5 a roll in the 80's, maybe on paper but I remember there were always deals, and sales, and cheaper alternatives. $1.99 for the roll and .99 1 hour development at the minilab plus prints. I'm sure list price was $5 but I don't remember spending that much on a roll of film in the 90's or even the 00's.

Sorry, I was talking AUD not USD. Take the numbers I said x 0.6. So current price I see in the supermarket for 3 x Kodak 400 is $US 29.
 
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None of which are actually needed any longer. The whole world moved to eCommerce mediated sales. Companies like B&H, Freestyle, Amazon, Target, Zoro, Walmart, Sam's Club, eBay, etc. could be used as channels to market and Kodak could run a drop ship warehouse for a whole lot less than what they are likely paying now for a distribution network or even outsource that to a 3PL of some kind. They could focus on product innovation and support by getting rid of the obsolete distribution model they are currently using. I wonder how many end point retailers even see a Kodak rep anymore.

The world changed, Kodak's leadership has not (or not enough). Either that, or they are trying to figure out how to unburden themselves of the Alaris albatross with all this kerfuffle. (In which case I take it all back.)

As I've been saying, Alaris just adds one more markup along the way.
 

DREW WILEY

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Even the Pringles chips in Walmart are way out of date. Why would anyone regard them as a worthy substitute for a film middleman? What interest would they have in any of this unless its dispoable cameras and amateur-level Kodak Gold, which was designed for less than ideal pre-sale conditions? B&H and Freestyle specialize in photo supplies - a completely different story. And some of us have resorted to pooled orders, brokered by Keith Canham, for example.

Gosh, Alan, I can't even stand setting foot in a WalMart. They've killed off more US mfg than almost anyone else, except perhaps Cheapo Depot. Either way, it's mostly all outsourced junk. Who wants junk film too?
 

mshchem

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Just like car dealerships, time to cut that business model out. I want to buy a car straight from Ford or Honda. Same should be for film.



Film was in no way $5 a roll in the 80's, maybe on paper but I remember there were always deals, and sales, and cheaper alternatives. $1.99 for the roll and .99 1 hour development at the minilab plus prints. I'm sure list price was $5 but I don't remember spending that much on a roll of film in the 90's or even the 00's.

I have a sweet 2021 Subaru. No one except a dealer knows how to get into these little beasties. Sure in 10 15 years the robot spawn electric vehicles will drive themselves to have service.

I wonder how many people are in sales at Alaris for US film sales? I doubt it is very many.
 

Cholentpot

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Even the Pringles chips in Walmart are way out of date. Why would anyone regard them as a worthy substitute for a film middleman? What interest would they have in any of this unless its dispoable cameras and amateur-level Kodak Gold, which was designed for less than ideal pre-sale conditions? B&H and Freestyle specialize in photo supplies - a completely different story. And some of us have resorted to pooled orders, brokered by Keith Canham, for example.

Gosh, Alan, I can't even stand setting foot in a WalMart. They've killed off more US mfg than almost anyone else, except perhaps Cheapo Depot. Either way, it's mostly all outsourced junk. Who wants junk film too?

If junk film keeps my cameras fed then so be it. We can't all shoot Portra or Tmax. I shoot what I can get my paws on.

I have a sweet 2021 Subaru. No one except a dealer knows how to get into these little beasties. Sure in 10 15 years the robot spawn electric vehicles will drive themselves to have service.

I wonder how many people are in sales at Alaris for US film sales? I doubt it is very many.

My '90 Corolla keeps on ticking. The dealer wants a look at it but I don't trust 'em. I think they want it for the showroom.
 
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