Kodak Discontinues Cut Supra Endura E Surface Paper

RellikJM · Oct 21, 2008

" As of October 1, 2008, we are discontinuing the four sheet sizes of E-surface KODAK PROFESSIONAL SUPRA ENDURA Paper due to declining sales in this surface. As a suggested alternative, we recommend N surface KODAK PROFESSIONAL SUPRA ENDURA Paper in the same formats.

Surface Cat # Sheet Format Status
E 3898384 100SH 8 IN x 10 IN SUPRA ENDURA E Discontinued
E 3930609 50SH 11 IN x 14 IN SUPRA ENDURA E Discontinued
E 3883212 50SH 16 IN x 20 IN SUPRA ENDURA E Discontinued
E 3883055 50SH 20 IN x 24 IN SUPRA ENDURA E Discontinued

F 3898392 100SH 8 IN x 10 IN SUPRA ENDURA F Active format / Will convert to 50SH Pack
F 3930690 50SH 8.5 IN X 11 IN SUPRA ENDURA F Discontinued
F 3930583 50SH 10 IN X 12 IN SUPRA ENDURA F Active
F 3930708 50SH 11 IN x 14 IN SUPRA ENDURA F Active
F 3883220 50SH 16 IN x 20 IN SUPRA ENDURA F Active
N 3898400 100SH 8 IN x 10 IN SUPRA ENDURA N Active format / Will convert to 50SH Pack
N 3930617 50SH 10 IN x 10 IN SUPRA ENDURA N Active
N 3930377 50SH 11 IN x 14 IN SUPRA ENDURA N Active
N 3883238 50SH 16 IN x 20 IN SUPRA ENDURA N Active
N 3883105 50SH 20 IN x 24 IN SUPRA ENDURA N Active
N 3932415 50SH 30 IN X 40 IN SUPRA ENDURA N Active

SUPRA ENDURA Paper sheet catalog numbers will convert to new catalog numbers later this as we change internal sourcing for these items. All continuing sheet formats will then be available 50-sheet packs. The new catalog numbers will be announced when they are available."

From: (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

pentaxuser · Oct 21, 2008

Of the 3 surfaces, I'd have thought that Lustre was the one that sells the best. This is the one I prefer. You'd think that semi-matt would be the one to be discontinued. I can see why B&W gloss is popular, although I still prefer Pearl(Lustre) in B&W but in colour, gloss never seems to show off the colours as well.

Ah well. Seems strange discontinuing one surface when launching a new colour film.

pentaxuser

fotch · Oct 21, 2008

Well they did say "due to declining sales in this surface".

They probably just want to stay in business.:rolleyes:

Dug · Oct 21, 2008

So does anyone know where I can get the Endura Metallic in 11X14 or do I have to buy a roll?

tjaded · Oct 21, 2008

I think you can order the metallic from Freestyle...I LOVE the metallic paper. It's good stuff, everyone should try it. The Fuji version is ok, but it is not nearly as nice as the Kodak version.

kraker · Oct 22, 2008

I could probably find an answer in one of Kodak's technical publications, but APUG is faster:
I know which numbers mean which type of surface for Ilford paper.

E, F and N of Kodak Endura? I Don't know which is which; enlighten me. Which surface is it we are losing when E will be discontinued?

M for Matte, G for Glossy, P for Pearl would have been *too* logical? (And I don't mean that as 'picking on the big yellow'; Ilford's "44" mapping to "Pearl" is also not all that logical.)

MattKing · Oct 22, 2008

The closest comparison would be "E" = Matte, "F" = Glossy, "N" = Pearl (although I prefer Semi-Matte).

The letter designations make more sense if you can remember the wonderful variety of surfaces that used to be available.

Matt

pelerin · Oct 22, 2008

kraker said:
I could probably find an answer in one of Kodak's technical publications, but APUG is faster:
I know which numbers mean which type of surface for Ilford paper.

E, F and N of Kodak Endura? I Don't know which is which; enlighten me. Which surface is it we are losing when E will be discontinued?

M for Matte, G for Glossy, P for Pearl would have been *too* logical? (And I don't mean that as 'picking on the big yellow'; Ilford's "44" mapping to "Pearl" is also not all that logical.)

"F" = Glossy
"E" = Luster
"N" = Semi matte (no true matte on that plastic surface anyway)

PE could possibly shed light on the origin of the letter designations. Using "M" for matte and "G" for glossy etc., is only more logical if the end-user actually uses those descriptions for the surface in question. (i.e., if you assume the universal use of English language descriptions for the product) Celac

PHOTOTONE · Oct 22, 2008

Please note, the info says discontinued in CUT sheet sizes. This would have nothing to do with the long roll sizes used in mini-labs where "E" (I think) is still very popular. If you are really into "E" surface, you could always purchase a long roll and cut it down in the darkroom.

pentaxuser · Oct 22, 2008

PHOTOTONE said:
This would have nothing to do with the long roll sizes used in mini-labs where "E" (I think) is still very popular.

It does seem strange that E is still popular for mini-labs where the vast majority of prints are done these days and yet in the darkroom amateur ranks it is E that has the declining sales.

Are the darkroom amateurs a different breed with different tastes?

NB This is not an attempt to be "picky" or question your post. I am genuinely curious. Like you I'd have thought that E is popular and that like Ilford's experience it is the matt surfaces that have the lowest demand which in Ilford's case is Satin

Do most mini-labs even offer N? I'd have thought that this is the minority taste compared to Lustre or Gloss?

I think my lab only offers E which is the "in between" surface that most people would expect to see for prints. Certainly if I had a mini-lab and for processing economics I could process one surface I'd be wary about either Glossy or Matt but especially Matt

pentaxuser

domaz · Oct 22, 2008

So who are the users of cut paper? I can't imagine that they would have cut paper at all if the only users were amateur darkroom users. There must be some kind of commercial users.

papermaker · Oct 22, 2008

Regarding the request for info on the origins of the letter designations the simple answer is that they were mostly assigned sequentially although there were some exceptions. The use of a capital letter to designate surface for Kodak products dates to at least 1886 when A (smooth surface, thin), B (smooth surface, heavy), and C (rough surface, heavy) were used to describe Eastman Permanent Bromide papers. As the number of surfaces increased so did the letters and by 1912 A through H were in use in Azo. However, at this same time, surfaces were also being designated by numbers and some products had no surface designation. Also, the use of letters was not consistent so that a single letter could mean something different in different product lines. By the early 1930s, all of the letters of the alphabet were in use (except I which appears to have never been used) as well as numbers 1 through 11 and some multiples such as AA or B1. It was not until the 1940s that Kodak simplified the system by making letters unique to a surface (almost unique as there were exceptions over the years). The convention was also established that a surface represented a unique combination of texture/sheen(gloss)/paper tint. For example, F represented smooth/glossy/white. When resin coated papers were introduced, letters were assigned based on similarity to the appearance of the fiber based grades. F glossy in RC came from F smooth/glossy/white in fiber base, E lustre came from E fine-grained/lustre/white, Y silk came from Y silk/lustre/cream white and N matte came from N smooth/matte/white (a designation from the 1940s).

pelerin · Oct 23, 2008

papermaker said:
Regarding the request for info on the origins of the letter designations the simple answer is that they were mostly assigned sequentially although there were some exceptions. The use of a capital letter to designate surface for Kodak products dates to at least 1886...
<SNIP>

Thanks for the explanation.

As for the amount of Supra "E" sold relative to the other surfaces clearly only Kodak knows the hard numbers but glossy seems to move faster than both the other surfaces where I work.
Celac

cmacd123 · Oct 27, 2008

MattKing said:
The closest comparison would be "E" = Matte, "F" = Glossy, "N" = Pearl (although I prefer Semi-Matte).

The letter designations make more sense if you can remember the wonderful variety of surfaces that used to be available.
Matt

Charles gets up and goes for his old manuals...

And pulls out Kodak Publication G-15 of 1963, "Surfaces and Contrast Grades of Kodak Photographic Paper" where there are SAMPLES of 10 different surfaces

Smooth glossy F
smooth lustre A(lightweight) B Cream and N white
fine grain lustre E white, G cream
smooth high lustre J
fine grain- high lustre D snowwhite, K cream
rough luster L cream
tweed lustre R cream
suede matt V cream
Silk lustre Y cream
and lastly
tapestry lustre X cream, and Z old ivory

Not all surfaces were in all stocks back then, and there was NO RC paper for at least a few years yet.

In those days you had to look up what surface you wanted and jot down the letter code. Their was also one publication that actually had a real small print done on each surface so you could better judge what paper to buy.

tim elder · Oct 28, 2008

I print color in a rental darkroom and I had noticed very few Kodak paper boxes with the "E" designation amongst the hundreds of boxes of paper that are stored at the lab. The lab also sells a good amount of paper in the "F" and "N" designations and I asked once why they don't sell the "E" paper and why no one seems to use it - and the answer was that no one likes it and no one buys it.

Tim

imazursky · Oct 28, 2008

I ended up with 2 large rolls of Kodak Metallic 10" x 575' rolls. I managed to make a rig out of PVC to hold the roll.
I run it through a cheap rotary cutter for 10x12's. With my IR goggles, it is very easy to cut up the paper after some trial and error.

Even though it was way before my time, I love Ektalure X. I have a few boxes of 16x20 and 11x14 in storage and it still prints great!

mgphoto · Nov 3, 2008

papermaker said:
Regarding the request for info on the origins of the letter designations the simple answer is that they were mostly assigned sequentially although there were some exceptions [SNIP].

I have always been under the impression that the "F" and "N" designations came from ferrotype (glossy) and non-ferrotype (Matte).

-Mark

2F/2F · Nov 3, 2008

I would describe them like this: F = glossy (a bit like glossy RC), E = textured ("pebbly") semi gloss, N = matte (a bit like matte RC)

I have always used N for everything, since I don't like F or E, but I expected N to go before E due to what I see most people using. N is not really matte. It has a nice smooth surface and a little sheen.

Well, so it begins. First Portra and Ultra go, now they are starting to cut surfaces. Joy.

They also discontinued their last 8.5 by 11 variety and are cutting boxes of 8x10 to 50 sheets instead of 100. The stuff is definitely on its way out. They will probably continue to make the paper for Lightjets until most people start favoring another process, but students and hobbyists wanting to do their own printing are going to be finding things tighter and tighter...

Hopefully there is also enough pro lab demand for 11x14 and larger cut paper for and printing that they will stay around. Problem is that there are not that many pro labs who can actually make an enlarger print any more.

papermaker · Nov 4, 2008

mgphoto said:
I have always been under the impression that the "F" and "N" designations came from ferrotype (glossy) and non-ferrotype (Matte).

-Mark

This is a common impression but its probably best called folk lore as there seems to be no evidence to support it. It would take several pages to review the twists and turns in the history of the lettering system. Briefly, C was the first letter designation used for glossy paper -- in Azo in 1906. Glossy paper that could be ferrotyped was offered prior to that but it was not assigned a letter designation. In 1910, the Azo surfaces were A through E. C was a pense tinted paper (pearl white). A white tinted glossy paper was added in 1911 and was assigned the next letter -- F. The pense tint was dropped in the 1930s and the C was changed to CF for a short time before being consolidated to F in the 1940s since it was the only glossy surface remaining.

Matte papers had many different designations over the years (a quick scan of some records shows that at least 7 different letters were used for papers with a matte sheen). Please remember that the letters designated a specific combination of texture, sheen, and tint -- there was no single letter that represented only the matte feature. During the 1930s there was an Azo G advertised as a glossy paper for use on belt dryers and an Azo F for ferrotyping. So we could say that G stood for non-ferrotyping. However, this would have been true only in the Azo line as this was prior to standardization of the letters and G was also used for other surfaces in other product lines at that time.

When the RC papers were lettered it was referenced to similar appearance to the fiber based papers and the resulting letters were based on either texture or sheen, not on a combination of features as with fiber based papers.

MarkS · Nov 7, 2008

The RC 'E' surface (as opposed to any fiber-base 'E' surface) was devised in the '70s, essentially meant to hide fingerprints. And also to hide the unsharpness of the Kodak instant film and the crappy lenses on their instant cameras.

Kodak Discontinues Cut Supra Endura E Surface Paper

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