Kodak D-76 shelf life - and yes, I searched...

Kirks518 · Sep 26, 2014

The recent thread "(there was a url link here which no longer exists)" prompted my question.

I have a chance to grab some unopened D-76 (1 liter size) packets cheap. They are in the older packaging, not the plasticy type of foil, but the foil backed paper. Does the powder go bad, or lode some of it's properties over time? These were supposedly stored in a freezer, which also makes me question if that is the correct storage method.

So does D-76 have an expiration date, or 'spoil' over time if in powder form?

All the searches came up with mixed/diluted D-76, nothing about the powder.

Rick A · Sep 26, 2014

If it mixes clear to very pale straw color it's good to use.

Bill Burk · Sep 26, 2014

Yes you already have it. Mix it up and decide based on appearances. I recommend buying one or two fresh bags just for those bad days.

I have been working my way through a carton of the old Dektol in foil/paper wrapping. As I make my way through, occasionally I find a brown mottled bag and when I mix it it's dark coffee color. I throw it out and try another. It's about 50/50 now but when I got it 30 years ago (and even then it was old) the odds were better.

Kirks518 · Sep 27, 2014

No, I don't have them yet. Trying to decide if it's worth getting them. It's about 20 packets, which would probably take me a decade to use up.

Bill Burk · Sep 27, 2014

Well, I'd say go for it. I think the paper/foil bags have good keeping quality. EKC can't guarantee that so I'm just saying from my experience the old stuff tends to be good. Don't pay more than $50 for it.

Xmas · Sep 27, 2014

Kirks518 said:
The recent thread "(there was a url link here which no longer exists)" prompted my question.

I have a chance to grab some unopened D-76 (1 liter size) packets cheap. They are in the older packaging, not the plasticy type of foil, but the foil backed paper. Does the powder go bad, or lode some of it's properties over time? These were supposedly stored in a freezer, which also makes me question if that is the correct storage method.

So does D-76 have an expiration date, or 'spoil' over time if in powder form?

All the searches came up with mixed/diluted D-76, nothing about the powder.

fridges no no for paper sealed powder pass on it.

buy shelf stored or scratch mix raw chemicals with micro balance use

D76d

http://www.lostlabours.co.uk/photography/formulae/developers/devD76_variants.htm

or

microphen !

buy micro balance cheap 0.01 gm resolution

Kirks518 · Sep 27, 2014

Slight correction - they were refrigerated, not frozen. If that matters.

cliveh · Sep 27, 2014

Kirks518 said:
The recent thread "(there was a url link here which no longer exists)" prompted my question.

I have a chance to grab some unopened D-76 (1 liter size) packets cheap. They are in the older packaging, not the plasticy type of foil, but the foil backed paper. Does the powder go bad, or lode some of it's properties over time? These were supposedly stored in a freezer, which also makes me question if that is the correct storage method.

So does D-76 have an expiration date, or 'spoil' over time if in powder form?

All the searches came up with mixed/diluted D-76, nothing about the powder.

These packets should be good to last the rest of your lifetime.

MattKing · Sep 28, 2014

The issue of storage life for powdered chemicals is complicated by a couple of factors.

Any projections from the manufacturer may actually be more about the packaging then the chemicals inside it. If the manufacturer has data indicating they have seen a small number of packaging failures after 5 years, they might decide to project 4 year life.

In addition, if the manufacturer has or is seeking ISO certification, it may be a requirement of that certification that all packages be marked with an expiry date.

Finally, as has been posted before, retailers, shippers and end user can, through mis-handling, really reduce the life of chemicals.

Xmas · Sep 28, 2014

Kirks518 said:
Slight correction - they were refrigerated, not frozen. If that matters.

pass

fridges are also at 100% relative humidity (RH) paper packaging is no good at 100%.

You would be ok with plastic but some one does not understand physical chemistry to store powders at high RH they would normally be ok on shelf for decades.

Or the ID-11 Ilford clone of D76 is ok after +ten on shelf.

Rick A · Sep 28, 2014

Xmas said:
pass

fridges are also at 100% relative humidity (RH) paper packaging is no good at 100%.

Really? My fridge is never 100% RH. Science tells us that the colder the air, the less the RH, as colder air cannot hold moisture(as evidenced by frost in freezer). Your statement just doesn't hold water sir.

mklw1954 · Sep 29, 2014

I'd pass on this and get new D76; these packets have an expiration date on them and I've never had a bad one. $6 to make one gallon, and if you use the stock solution at 4 rolls per liter (re-use it), you can develop 15 rolls of 135-36 or 120 film for only $0.40 a roll; even cheaper if you use it at 1:1. You might waste your money on the old stuff and risk messing up some film; why do this, given the cost to use new D76?

Xmas · Sep 29, 2014

Rick A said:
Xmas said:

pass

fridges are also at 100% relative humidity (RH) paper packaging is no good at 100%.

Really? My fridge is never 100% RH. Science tells us that the colder the air, the less the RH, as colder air cannot hold moisture(as evidenced by frost in freezer). Your statement just doesn't hold water sir.

Click to expand...

In my kitchen when the fridge door is opened all the cool air flows out the bottom and hot air flows in the top to replace it.

The warm air was at 15c to 30c 70-90% RH at the 5c it gets to in the fridge it goes to 100% RH and condenses and freezes on the ice box heat exhanger.

Some modern fridge may drain off ice box condensate and drip it on to external heat exchanger and eventually drop the RH below 100% but the open door cycle is still like in a rain forest rather than in death valley.

Paper packing of D-76 is not going to keep the powders bone dry.

Leaving them on top of fridge is a much better bet, even in my kitchen.

Kirks518 · Oct 30, 2014

Just an update.

I finally got around to opening and using one of the packs. It's expiration was 2008. I mixed it at 120°+F, and then stuck it in the fridge to get the temp down. (and then back up, as it got down to 54°F).

I developed a roll of Arista EDU Ultra 100 (120) for 9 minutes, and I just hung the roll to dry. At first look, it looks better (more 'defined') then what I had been getting with my HC-110.

One thing I did different then what I had been doing with the HC-110, was my rate of agitation. I followed the directions on the box, which says to agitate continuously for the first 30 secs, then 5-7 times every 30 seconds. With the HC-110, I would agitate for the first 10 seconds, then every minute thereafter (5 inversions).

New question: Based on the above paragraph, if I were to agitate continuously for the first 30 seconds, and every 30 seconds thereafter with the HC-110, would that increase my contrast levels? I've been pretty happy with my HC-110 results until I saw the D-76, as I really like the increased contrast I'm seeing, and I'm wondering if it's the increased agitation, or just the way the 2 developers are inherently different.

MattKing · Oct 30, 2014

Kirks518 said:
New question: Based on the above paragraph, if I were to agitate continuously for the first 30 seconds, and every 30 seconds thereafter with the HC-110, would that increase my contrast levels? I've been pretty happy with my HC-110 results until I saw the D-76, as I really like the increased contrast I'm seeing, and I'm wondering if it's the increased agitation, or just the way the 2 developers are inherently different.

Within a reasonable range, increasing agitation will increase development, and with increased development, you will get increased contrast.

But increasing the time or temperature will have a more obvious effect.

LikeAPolaroid · Oct 30, 2014

You should have used the same agitation pattern with HC110. That's the Kodak way and times reported suppose that.
D76 is pretty sentitive to agitation.

Redmond · Oct 30, 2014

Rick A said:
Xmas said:

Science tells us that the colder the air, the less the RH, as colder air cannot hold moisture(as evidenced by frost in freezer).

Click to expand...

Sorry, slight correction to your statement: the "relative" in relative humidity is related to temperature. So "the colder the air, the less the RH" is slightly wrong--what you mean instead is that the absolute water content of the air is lower.

Since cold air holds less water, relative humidity would actually go up as the air cools (since the absolute amount of moisture in the air is now closer to the dew point, which is 100% RH). Once it increases all the way to 100% RH, you'll see condensation on the inside of your fridge (or frost in the freezer).

Gerald C Koch · Oct 30, 2014

Rick A said:
Xmas said:

pass

fridges are also at 100% relative humidity (RH) paper packaging is no good at 100%.

Really? My fridge is never 100% RH. Science tells us that the colder the air, the less the RH, as colder air cannot hold moisture(as evidenced by frost in freezer). Your statement just doesn't hold water sir.

Click to expand...

Actually you have it backwards. Relative humidity is defined as the ratio of the amount of water vapor in air compared to the amount that it can possibly hold. It is a dimensionless number. As air cools the RH increases. Eventually water vapor begins to condense (100% RH). In the atmosphere this causes fog. In cool air there may be less moisture actually present but the RH is greater.

In a refrigerator moisture enters each time the door is opened. Unless the packets were within another container such as a baggie, it is a bad place to store any photographic materials.

RedSun · Feb 18, 2015

As to old D-76 powder. I had an opened bag of D-76, not sure about year. I had it in my basement for a couple of years. It was still white, like table salt. So I mixed the power to 1/2 gallon stock solution. That was last May (2014). I used some to develop sheet films. The rest was stored in basement.

I shot more BW roll films recently. Was going to use the Rodinal to process them. Then I saw I still have two small bottles of stock D-76 solution. So I gave that a try, with 1:1 mix. The results are very good. Can't really tell the difference vs other developers (T-max, Rodinal).

Kodak book says D-76 stock solutions shelf life is 6 months. But this has been 9 months. Also the power was old. But all it good. My stop and fixer are about 2-year old. I only added some fresh chemical to fill the bottles.

tkamiya · Feb 18, 2015

Expiration is stamped on right bottom edge

Kirks518 said:
So does D-76 have an expiration date, or 'spoil' over time if in powder form?

Yes, it does. It is stamped on bottom right edge.

Personally, I really wouldn't bother.... D-76 is still pretty inexpensive. 1 liter bag is $3.95 and 1 gallon bag is $5.79. If you buy an old expired bags, quality of which is UNKNOWN. It may work or may not. Once mixed, it may last as expected or it may not. Personally, I wouldn't risk any film or a shot, (or a cost associated for going out to the shoot).

heespharm · Feb 18, 2015

I looked at this 5 yrs ago... Left 1:1 d76 for a year

Identical to fresh... But I didn't have a densometer

My tests were far from scientific

All printed just fine

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

RedSun · Feb 19, 2015

This is not about the $. Most of us do not have constant film flow. So a lot of time some chemicals will pass the expiration date. It does not make sense to mix a gallon to develop two rolls of films.

Of course we need to get more film flow...

But it is still good to know the shelf life of some of the common chemicals. I do not store the diluted chemicals. I already get plenty stock solutions.... 1:1 is just perfect to use in most of the tanks.

Rick A · Feb 19, 2015

I have some stock strength D-76 that I mixed two+ years ago, I use it every once in a while and it still works like fresh developer, still clear not discolored.

RedSun · Feb 20, 2015

This is good to know. With 1:1 dilution, 150ml or 300ml working solution is all I need. There is no need to save diluted working solution.

David Lyga · Feb 20, 2015

My (redundant) advice on this is to pour each packet's contents into a (dry, clean) PET plastic bottle and cap securely. D-76 'browning' is usually not as bad as Dektol's is. That is due both to the excess HQ and tremendous amount of carbonate. Dektol is very prone to going brown but even if considerably brown, still will make good paper developer. It is is near black, that might be another story. But, do not trust those paper/foil packets to STORE powder in. Packaging in this way was an example of pure idiocy on the part of Kodak. I was born into the era of cans (even the ones with keys on the side to open them with). Why Kodak changed was an example of economics gone awry. - David Lyga

Kodak D-76 shelf life - and yes, I searched...

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