Kodak D-76 dilutions

littlebird · Mar 2, 2024

A few months ago I started using Kodak D-76 for developing films. Before I mainly used Rodinal in 1+50 dilution and had no problems with it, it worked fine with all films and even with pushing 1 or 2 stops. What I notice with D-76 in 1+3 dilution and Foma films is that pushed films come out with a quite dark base+fog and the negative is thin (even with longer developing time) and even negatives shot at box speed are sometimes really thin. The chemicals are fresh, I check the developing times on devchart and my exposure should be within the latitude of the film. I think the 1+3 dilution doesn't really work with this film or the rather contrasty scenes I shoot.

I want to start using D-76 stock solution but because I mainly develop 120 film using 800ml developer and throwing it away after development would be expensive. As far as I know, some people reuse stock solution and increase developing time by 10% after every film. Is this accurate? And for how long can I use 1l of stock solution? I guess in theory I could use it forever as long as I increase the time but I think after a while it becomes less effective/less consistent.

koraks · Mar 2, 2024

littlebird said:
What I notice with D-76 in 1+3 dilution and Foma films is that pushed films come out with a quite dark base+fog and the negative is thin (even with longer developing time)

Which Foma film(s)? For instance, Fomapan 400 easily creates fairly high b+f in my experience, especially as it ages (all faster films are liable to this), but 100 and 200 don't. So they're not all the same.

Also, is there a chance of posting an example of two films with one exhibiting this problem and the other not? Preferably photographed on some kind of light box.

littlebird said:
I want to start using D-76 stock solution but because I mainly develop 120 film using 800ml developer and throwing it away after development would be expensive.

Watch out for false economy. Think of what a roll of film costs vs. a liter of developer. You mention using rodinal in the past at 1+50. That's 16ml of rodinal for an 800ml development run. 500ml of rodinal costs something like €15. That's €0.50 per roll of film in developer if you run a single roll through 800ml. Btw, most tanks I have take around 500ml for a single roll of 120 with the possibility of spooling two 120 rolls end-to-end on the same reel, cutting chemical use in half.

There are other developers that may be even cheaper used one shot especially if you're willing to mix them yourself. Something like pyrocat is easy to make and the concentrate lasts a long time. It's very economical. If you're happy with rodinal, you could make parodinal from sulfite, hydroxide and paracetamol. Etc. etc.

Finally, if you want/need to cut back on chemical use, consider getting/DIY-ing a roller base. With rotary development you need much less chemistry. Depending on how sweet a deal you can manage on the roller base and how much film you develop, you might be able to recoup the investment fairly quickly.

littlebird said:
I guess in theory I could use it forever

But practice doesn't always conform to theory. There are ways of running a replenished B&W developer system; some people on this forum do this with xtol, for instance (@MattKing and @Sirius Glass come to mind). D76 can also be run in a replenished system, but the D76R replenisher isn't for sale anymore so you'd have to mix it yourself. If you're going to do that, you'll find that mixing up D76 is actually so cheap you likely won't bother with replenishing it.

Philippe-Georges · Mar 2, 2024

something to reed about:

Anon Ymous · Mar 2, 2024

littlebird said:
What I notice with D-76 in 1+3 dilution and Foma films is that pushed films come out with a quite dark base+fog and the negative is thin (even with longer developing time) and even negatives shot at box speed are sometimes really thin.

There's the probability that you use too little stock solution, especially at this dilution. Kodak recommends a minimum of 250 ml stock solution per 135-36 film, or equivalent surface area. By trying to push process the film, you're making things even tougher.

koraks · Mar 2, 2024

Anon Ymous said:
There's the probability that you use too little stock solution, especially at this dilution.

Good call!

Don_ih · Mar 2, 2024

You cannot reuse stock D76 indefinitely by adding more time. When you use a developer, bromide builds up in the solution, which restrains development. Also, the active ingredients in the developer become depleted through use.

D76 replenisher has added alkalinity to overcome the increased restrainer power of the used D76 stock. You can replenish 1 litre of d76 using about 70ml replenisher per roll of film up until you've used up a litre of replenisher. That will develop much more film than 2 litres of D76 on its own will.

3g Metol
100g Sodium Sulfite
7.5g Hydroquinone
20g Borax
makes a litre of replenisher.

Note the difference between that and D76

2g Metol
100g Sodium Sulfite
5g Hydroquinone
2g Borax
makes a litre of D76.

--much higher concentration of borax in the replenisher, compared to the developing agents.

brian steinberger · Mar 2, 2024

Why not use 1:1 and throw out after?

Radost · Mar 2, 2024

Anon Ymous said:
There's the probability that you use too little stock solution, especially at this dilution. Kodak recommends a minimum of 250 ml stock solution per 135-36 film, or equivalent surface area. By trying to push process the film, you're making things even tougher.

I taught they recommend 100ml per 135/120

Don_ih · Mar 2, 2024

Radost said:
I taught they recommend 100ml per 135/120

Here's one of the long threads about that, although it comes up all the time.

John Wiegerink · Mar 2, 2024

Anon Ymous said:
There's the probability that you use too little stock solution, especially at this dilution. Kodak recommends a minimum of 250 ml stock solution per 135-36 film, or equivalent surface area. By trying to push process the film, you're making things even tougher.

++1. Yes, I think some people forget that film and chemical companies recommend how many sq.in. their film developer will develop. I use Ilford's Perceptol occasionally almost always diluted. If you are using it diluted 1+3 you're cutting it three times and it's much less potent. If your tank just barely holds your film and reel there will not be enough STOCK Peceptol to do a proper job of developing. I always use a two reel 120 tank to develop one roll of 120. That gives me enough volume of STOCK Perceptol to properly do the job. Always play it safe!

bernard_L · Mar 2, 2024

Using D-76 stock one-shot and diluting 1+3 are two extremes. Many people use D-76 1+1 one-shot. Less costly than single-use stock; consistent development, no need to apply time compensation that will always be an approximation.

Doremus Scudder · Mar 2, 2024

Anon Ymous said:
There's the probability that you use too little stock solution, especially at this dilution. Kodak recommends a minimum of 250 ml stock solution per 135-36 film, or equivalent surface area. By trying to push process the film, you're making things even tougher.

brian steinberger said:
Why not use 1:1 and throw out after?

There are your answers. Kodak doesn't even recommend using D-76 1+3 IIRC. 1+1 is great and economical one-shot.

Best,

Doremus

chuckroast · Mar 2, 2024

littlebird said:
A few months ago I started using Kodak D-76 for developing films. Before I mainly used Rodinal in 1+50 dilution and had no problems with it, it worked fine with all films and even with pushing 1 or 2 stops. What I notice with D-76 in 1+3 dilution and Foma films is that pushed films come out with a quite dark base+fog and the negative is thin (even with longer developing time) and even negatives shot at box speed are sometimes really thin. The chemicals are fresh, I check the developing times on devchart and my exposure should be within the latitude of the film. I think the 1+3 dilution doesn't really work with this film or the rather contrasty scenes I shoot.

I want to start using D-76 stock solution but because I mainly develop 120 film using 800ml developer and throwing it away after development would be expensive. As far as I know, some people reuse stock solution and increase developing time by 10% after every film. Is this accurate? And for how long can I use 1l of stock solution? I guess in theory I could use it forever as long as I increase the time but I think after a while it becomes less effective/less consistent.

If you want really economic developer that does amazing things and has all manner of fun ways to be used, learn to make your own D-23.

pentaxuser · Mar 2, 2024

John Wiegerink said:
++1. Yes, I think some people forget that film and chemical companies recommend how many sq.in. their film developer will develop. I use Ilford's Perceptol occasionally almost always diluted. If you are using it diluted 1+3 you're cutting it three times and it's much less potent. If your tank just barely holds your film and reel there will not be enough STOCK Peceptol to do a proper job of developing. I always use a two reel 120 tank to develop one roll of 120. That gives me enough volume of STOCK Perceptol to properly do the job. Always play it safe!

I once wrote to Ilford about using 1+3 in a 250ml tank so, say 63 mls of stock Perceptol in a 1+3 It replied that 70 ml would be OK but 63 ml might be on the edge of safety. This is a developer where you could read the instructions as implying that 250ml of stock was the minimum required

Anyway to cut a long story short I used 63 ml and the negatives looked fine and the prints were also fine. So was I the "lucky Limey who got away with using 157 mls too little or the "lax Limey" who just produced crap negs and didn't realise it?

I started my analogue adventure at night school where you had any choice of developer as long as it was ID11 and used 1+3 in a Paterson tank so 75ml of stock. With my negatives and prints I had to pass an exam called City and Guilds which I did.

Might those with a very discerning eye notice that the negatives were not as good as they would have been with 250 mls of Perceptol( possible) and if not then might a densitometer have shown this to be the case ( probably) but would the subsequent prints have suffered to the extent that was clearly evident to all viewers or certainly most viewers to the extent that they would have thought them unsatisfactory - that may be much more uncertain

pentaxuser

cliveh · Mar 2, 2024

brian steinberger said:
Why not use 1:1 and throw out after?

Agree 100%

madNbad · Mar 2, 2024

I gave up trying to do either too much dilution (1+3) or too many rolls (2 in a 500 ml tank 1+1). I'm probably using way more developer than I need, a 1+1 dilution of D-76 but just one 135-36 roll in a 500 ml tank.

Craig · Mar 2, 2024

Don_ih said:
You cannot reuse stock D76 indefinitely by adding more time.

That is true; you also can't extend life indefinitely with replenishment.

The datasheet says to discard a replenished solution after processing 120 135-36 films (9600 square inches) per US gallon (3.8L), or after a month, whichever comes first.

pbromaghin · Mar 2, 2024

littlebird said:
I want to start using D-76 stock solution but because I mainly develop 120 film using 800ml developer and throwing it away after development would be expensive. As far as I know, some people reuse stock solution and increase developing time by 10% after every film. Is this accurate? And for how long can I use 1l of stock solution?

I’ve never heard anyone say they use stock solution 1-shot. That is unnecessary and wasteful. A bag of powder in the US will make a gallon (3.7 liters) of stock which is good For 16 rolls. You just use what you need and pour it back until you’ve done 16 rolls and then put it down the drain. Easy peasy.

Don_ih · Mar 2, 2024

pbromaghin said:
I’ve never heard anyone say they use stock solution 1-shot. That is unnecessary and wasteful. A bag of powder in the US will make a gallon (3.7 liters) of stock which is good For 16 rolls. You just use what you need and pour it back until you’ve done 16 rolls and then put it down the drain. Easy peasy.

Coincidentally, that's the same as using it 1-shot, 1 cup at a time, for 16 rolls.

pbromaghin · Mar 2, 2024

Don_ih said:
Coincidentally, that's the same as using it 1-shot, 1 cup at a time, for 16 rolls.

Shit. You're right. Where did I leave my brain? With my car keys? Reading glasses? Water bottle? I know it's somewhere around here.

Looking at the data sheet, I see I confused myself with doing 2 rolls in 500 ml and adding 10% to the time.

pbromaghin · Mar 2, 2024

Don_ih said:
Coincidentally, that's the same as using it 1-shot, 1 cup at a time, for 16 rolls.

Wait! He said he was using 800ml one shot per roll of 120. THAT is what I was protesting against. Think about it. He's getting 9 rolls from 2 gallons of developer when he should be getting 32. I don't know where he got the 1+3 thing, either. It looks like he never read anything about D76 before using it, but just built on info about other developers.

I did get mixed up, though.

I generally make up a gallon, store it in quart bottles, do 4 rolls per bottle at full strength and toss it.

Philippe-Georges · Mar 3, 2024

If 1+1 isn't economical enough and 1+3 is too much dilution (disillusion), then try 1+2...

Radost · Mar 3, 2024

Don_ih said:
Here's one of the long threads about that, although it comes up all the time.

We are talking about minimum amount of Chemicals per film. Kodak recommends 125ml but I have gotten good results with 100ml.

npl · Mar 3, 2024

littlebird said:
The chemicals are fresh, I check the developing times on devchart and my exposure should be within the latitude of the film. I think the 1+3 dilution doesn't really work with this film

On top of everything that has been said, your developing time might be off. Times on the MDC are to be treated as rough starting point only, they can be good or very very off.

Doremus Scudder · Mar 3, 2024

The contest is on! How little stock D-76 can YOU use and still get "usable" negatives? We're currently at 63ml...

Going once... Going twice...

Any takers?

Kodak D-76 dilutions

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