Kodak committed to making film "as long as there's demand"

Mike Lopez · Aug 19, 2023

eli griggs said:
Thank you for your nonsensical answer, but, for those of us that depend on either or both companies films, knowing what the companie's minimum threshold to ending film production is a tipoff for when we're looking at their minds at recent production of films.

I mean, you go out of your way to not use the word "not," {redacted}

cmacd123 · Aug 19, 2023

MattKing said:
And those were the folks that 126 and 110 were clearly designed for!

100%. "Fumble free" "You push the button" I am not sure how it works but the picture of LittleSuzzy is Nice.

around that time Fuji color was just coming onto the Canadian market. I found only about 1 in ten folks would even look at it, and many were not sure if it would fit their Kodak Camera.

BrianShaw · Aug 19, 2023

Mike Lopez said:
I mean, you go out of your way to not use the word "not," {redacted}

Well, with a couple of people who say they have insider info/sources it’s conceivable that someone must no the definitive answer.

Cholentpot · Aug 19, 2023

cmacd123 said:
100%. "Fumble free" "You push the button" I am not sure how it works but the picture of LittleSuzzy is Nice.

around that time Fuji color was just coming onto the Canadian market. I found only about 1 in ten folks would even look at it, and many were not sure if it would fit their Kodak Camera.

I ran across some video tape from the early 90's where my then teenage gumcracking hairspray cousin is in the background saying 'Fuji yuck, don't use that stuff!'

Also, as a user of 110 and 126, it ain't fumble free.

cmacd123 · Aug 19, 2023

Cholentpot said:
Also, as a user of 110 and 126, it ain't fumble free.

more fumble free that 127 and 620...

But the QL system and other "Modern" 35mm cameras are at least as straight forward as 126. (which is proably one of the reasons that APS bombed, by the time it came out it was solving a problem that no longer was a problem.)

I actually LIKED the slightly brighter colours of fujicolor. And years later Konica was even brighter. But I am sure that Kodak would have done MUCH subjective research with consumer panels to fine tune the response of Kodacolor to the preference of a US based audience.
when Kodak and Fuji were head butting, Kodak even made a special version of Kodacolor for the Japan Domestic market which was vauguely decribed as meeting the preferences of that market. Kikewise if you read "@laser" book on the the charts metions a version for the South Asian market.

Cholentpot · Aug 19, 2023

cmacd123 said:
more fumble free that 127 and 620...

But the QL system and other "Modern" 35mm cameras are at least as straight forward as 126. (which is proably one of the reasons that APS bombed, by the time it came out it was solving a problem that no longer was a problem.)

I actually LIKED the slightly brighter colours of fujicolor. And years later Konica was even brighter. But I am sure that Kodak would have done MUCH subjective research with consumer panels to fine tune the response of Kodacolor to the preference of a US based audience.
when Kodak and Fuji were head butting, Kodak even made a special version of Kodacolor for the Japan Domestic market which was vauguely decribed as meeting the preferences of that market. Kikewise if you read "@laser" book on the the charts metions a version for the South Asian market.

I'll agree about 127. It's the fumblestist film of any format I've shot yet.

MattKing · Aug 19, 2023

cmacd123 said:
more fumble free that 127 and 620...

But the QL system and other "Modern" 35mm cameras are at least as straight forward as 126. (which is proably one of the reasons that APS bombed, by the time it came out it was solving a problem that no longer was a problem.)

I actually LIKED the slightly brighter colours of fujicolor. And years later Konica was even brighter. But I am sure that Kodak would have done MUCH subjective research with consumer panels to fine tune the response of Kodacolor to the preference of a US based audience.
when Kodak and Fuji were head butting, Kodak even made a special version of Kodacolor for the Japan Domestic market which was vauguely decribed as meeting the preferences of that market. Kikewise if you read "@laser" book on the the charts metions a version for the South Asian market.

There was also film made in a number of other markets, that tended to reflect the needs of those markets.
Part of that was due to the difficulty (at the time) of making film that was near identical in a variety of different locations around the world.
In the motion picture world, film from Kodak Pathe was quite distinct from the North American stuff.

Prest_400 · Aug 20, 2023

cmacd123 said:
I actually LIKED the slightly brighter colours of fujicolor. And years later Konica was even brighter. But I am sure that Kodak would have done MUCH subjective research with consumer panels to fine tune the response of Kodacolor to the preference of a US based audience.
when Kodak and Fuji were head butting, Kodak even made a special version of Kodacolor for the Japan Domestic market which was vauguely decribed as meeting the preferences of that market. Kikewise if you read "@laser" book on the the charts metions a version for the South Asian market.

I caught at most the tail end of market specific films, which still in some way Fuji has in Japan (?). Another palette that I have seen not as photographing myself are the consumer Agfa, Konica and Ferrania (in consumer film). The preferences are still visible through the scan interpretations from what I see online from different region photographers. Particularly ifrom Japan there is a soft, pastel and slightly cyan-green pallette that some photographers work with there.

Kodak Alaris related, in the last couple of days FINDLab posted that the consumer (35mm) films are now priced by Kodak at "Less than $10". It reads as a general pricing readjustment from Kodak, bar distributors et al... certainly welcome as consumer.

pentaxuser · Aug 20, 2023

Prest_400 said:
Kodak Alaris related, in the last couple of days FINDLab posted that the consumer (35mm) films are now priced by Kodak at "Less than $10". It reads as a general pricing readjustment from Kodak, bar distributors et al... certainly welcome as consumer.

Is that priced by Eastman Kodak and if so priced to whom? To KA? Is it all films and what evidence is there that this represents a readjustment from Kodak

Thanks

pentaxuser

MattKing · Aug 20, 2023

pentaxuser said:
Is that priced by Eastman Kodak and if so priced to whom? To KA? Is it all films and what evidence is there that this represents a readjustment from Kodak

Thanks

pentaxuser

You are never going to see any information about how much Eastman Kodak charges Kodak Alaris.
And you are unlikely to see information about how much Kodak Alaris charges local distributors.
A retailer might leak their cost to buy from the local distributors.
That FINDLab post would only make sense if it referred to a retail price.

Prest_400 · Aug 20, 2023

MattKing said:
A retailer might leak their cost to buy from the local distributors.
That FINDLab post would only make sense if it referred to a retail price.

At most, some labs that also sell film (Carmencita) mention keeping a low mark up or "at cost".
I found that post relevant to link here as if they are able to lower the retail price of Kodak consumer films (Gold, Ultramax, ColorPlus), that is a change of pattern from the continuous increases.

BrianShaw · Aug 20, 2023

It could have been a typo. Here is the corrected announcement, putting to end the contraversy:

We’ve got news—FINDLab just dropped its prices. Consumer films like Gold, ColorPlus, and UltraMax are all in the single digit price range.

cmacd123 · Aug 20, 2023

MattKing said:
In the motion picture world, film from Kodak Pathe was quite distinct from the North American stuff.

I recall one of the more famous Photojournalists (can't reall which one) being quoted as saying they preferred French Tri-X (Safe'ty) rather than British (SAF'ETY) or American (S'AFETY)
FWIW, when Super 8 was out of fashion, the French Market was the strongest, and so for a few years ALL super 8 was at least Finished in France.

pentaxuser · Aug 21, 2023

BrianShaw said:
It could have been a typo. Here is the corrected announcement, putting to end the contraversy:

Thanks Brian That is much more specific and makes sense

pentaxuser

Agulliver · Aug 24, 2023

cerber0s said:
But for how long? Is film here to stay permanently? In other words; did we reach an equilibrium? Or is this just temporary?

As Henning has often stated in these very pages, demand unexpectedly started picking up in 2016 and has continued to rise. Before the pandemic, Kodak alone had a backlog of 30 million 35mm rolls, if my memory serves. Less is known about Fuji as they are less clear in their communication (Japanese corporate culture) but it is assumed they also had a large backlog. Kodak are known to have spent a lot of money on trying to ramp up production again with the big bottleneck being the confectioning, getting the film into 135 canisters and packaged for consumers.

Demand has continued to rise despite the pandemic. Sure, it's a few per cent of what it was 25 years ago but it's continuing to rise. Whether this is sustained in the longer term might depend on a reliable supply of C41 colour film - as that is still by far the most popular.

All this is going from what Henning has stated and from my own conversations with camera shops and other vendors of photo film - mostly around England but some in Wales and the USA. They all report the same. Increased demand for 35mm C41 colour film, driven mostly by younger folk.

Andrew O'Neill · Aug 24, 2023

Yup. My local shop cannot keep it on the shelves, especially colour.

BrianShaw · Aug 24, 2023

Can’t the retailers order more in terms of quantity and/or frequency? I often get the impression that retailers are less willing to order as they once did, back when film was easier to find/buy. The availability of film seems to have multiple causes and the supply seems throttled at several points in the chain. Probably because there’s not enough profit motivation for any major change to the situation, especially at the points of manufacture.

All of that demand but not enough motivation to fully fulfill it. A situation that just can’t be improved, it seems. There is likely a lot more complaining and Monday-morning quarterbacking in our collective futures!

Andrew O'Neill · Aug 24, 2023

There doesn't appear to be an issue with Ilford on the shelves of my local shop, though... And if say, SFX is sold out, they can easily order more for me.

Sirius Glass · Aug 24, 2023

BrianShaw said:
Can’t the retailers order more in terms of quantity and/or frequency? I often get the impression that retailers are less willing to order as they once did, back when film was easier to find/buy. The availability of film seems to have multiple causes and the supply seems throttled at several points in the chain. Probably because there’s not enough profit motivation for any major change to the situation, especially at the points of manufacture.

All of that demand but not enough motivation to fully fulfill it. A situation that just can’t be improved, it seems. There is likely a lot more complaining and Monday-morning quarterbacking in our collective futures!

I suspect a store can order more, but not receive more, but your point about stores not wanting to invest more capital and take more risks is very valid.

JParker · Aug 26, 2023

Agulliver said:
All this is going from what Henning has stated and from my own conversations with camera shops and other vendors of photo film - mostly around England but some in Wales and the USA. They all report the same. Increased demand for 35mm C41 colour film, driven mostly by younger folk.

Same situation here, and same situation in my native region / birth town.

JParker · Aug 26, 2023

BrianShaw said:
Can’t the retailers order more in terms of quantity and/or frequency? I often get the impression that retailers are less willing to order as they once did, back when film was easier to find/buy.

Every time when I talk to my film distributors or local labs they tell me that they know very well the demand of their customers. And they order film for that demand.
But the demand is often higher than the supply, and they cannot get enough film from the wholesalers, which cannot get enough shipped by Kodak and Fuji.
The local film shops and labs are certainly not the problem.

pentaxuser · Aug 26, 2023

Andrew O'Neill said:
There doesn't appear to be an issue with Ilford on the shelves of my local shop, though... And if say, SFX is sold out, they can easily order more for me.

So in terms of catering for demand/supply changes I wonder why Ilford is the only one who seems able to respond the same way as in the "good old days" that we long for?

pentaxuser

BrianShaw · Aug 26, 2023

It could be that their equipment and processes are newer and more suitably sized for todays demand for film rather than old, big, and responsive to the era when film demand was much, much greater.

That’s my guess, at least. But there could be some impact of being more effective at controlling corporate overhead bloat, too.

Film-Niko · Aug 26, 2023

pentaxuser said:
So in terms of catering for demand/supply changes I wonder why Ilford is the only one who seems able to respond the same way as in the "good old days" that we long for?

pentaxuser

It is quite simple:
The demand for color film had exploded in comparison to lowest demand point some years ago.
The demand for BW has increased but not exploded, therefore it has been much easier for Ilford and Foma to adapt.
Also color film needs much more different raw materials, so the likelyness of being affected by raw material shortages is much bigger.

Agulliver · Aug 26, 2023

Yeah, the retailers I speak to say the issue with C41 film is that they are still way behind on receiving orders they've placed. In some cases, the supply they've received from distributors is still *very* sporadic. At one point I was even in discussion on purchasing Fuji Superia 400 from Wal-Mart while I was in the USA, and bringing back a few dozen rolls for my local camera shop to buy off me and stock on the shelves!

The demand for colour film exploded unexpectedly around 2015/16 and has continued to increase despite the pandemic. This caught Kodak and Fuji completely by surprise, nobody really expected it. Demand for B&W film has increased, but more steadily rather than an explosion and the major players in the B&W world have been able to keep up with demand - though it's been reported that at one point during the pandemic lockdowns, Ilford were down to just a couple of weeks supply in stock at the point when they were able to resume production.

Ilford and Foma didn't face anything like the same issues as Kodak and Fuji with colour film. Note that there's been no shortage of Kodak B&W film either. It's far simpler to make with materials that are less difficult to obtain.

Kodak committed to making film "as long as there's demand"

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Kodak committed to making film "as long as there's demand"

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