Kodak Comeback, Quick Read

Roger Cole · Mar 23, 2012

Well I always loved APX 100 and 400. Where are they?

And while they're at it, bring back Agfa's last line of C41 films. Optima 100 was good but nothing that I can't get from Portra, close enough. But Ultra 50 had a saturation that was just incredible, even more than today's Ektar 100, heck I think it was more saturated than Velvia. I rarely wanted such exaggerated color but when I wanted it, Ultra 50 delivered. What I'd like even better would be something like Portrait 160. Today we have highly saturated film (Ektar 100) and moderately highly saturated film (everything else) - there is no muted pastel film available. I've no idea how to get that kind of look anymore from film/paper. The only way I know to get it is digitally.

Steve Smith · Mar 23, 2012

Roger Cole said:
And while they're at it, bring back Agfa's last line of C41 films.

How are Kodak going to do that?!!!

Steve.

georg16nik · Mar 23, 2012

Roger, they say the last reincarnation of APX is still on the market as APX100 from Agfaphoto or as Rollei Retro 100.
Apart from that, Adox got the machines and engineers form AFGA that did APX, so its a matter of time to start rolling.
http://www.adox.de/english/ADOX Films/Fims.html
You can see that they are working on it - ADOX Pan 100 (i.p.), ADOX Pan 400

Resurrect color is a no go, at least not in Europe.. given the current economy situation and market.
Ektar is a perfect film, so shoot it while You still have it.

Some Kodak ads from 1970 till present http://www.advertolog.com/brands/kodak/

Roger Cole · Mar 23, 2012

Steve Smith said:
How are Kodak going to do that?!!!

Steve.

Little bit of a diversion there. The poster I was responding to was saying that Adox film was just Agfa. So I meant, well, in that case, have them (Adox) give us those films.

Back to Kodak dreamin'...

Roger Cole · Mar 23, 2012

georg16nik said:
Roger, they say the last reincarnation of APX is still on the market as APX100 from Agfaphoto or as Rollei Retro 100.
Apart from that, Adox got the machines and engineers form AFGA that did APX, so its a matter of time to start rolling.
http://www.adox.de/english/ADOX Films/Fims.html
You can see that they are working on it - ADOX Pan 100 (i.p.), ADOX Pan 400

Resurrect color is a no go, at least not in Europe.. given the current economy situation and market.
Ektar is a perfect film, so shoot it while You still have it.

Some Kodak ads since the 1970 http://www.advertolog.com/brands/kodak/

I do like Ektar a lot, and it's less...temperamental than Ultra 50 was. But damn that film was something.

DREW WILEY · Mar 23, 2012

Why we're very unlikely to see any of these past films resurrected is that everyone wants certain favorites,
and Kodak has already done an excellent job of making their remaining film lineup the most versatile ever.
Pooling buying power on specialty products isn't that easy unless you're gov't, a huge industrial user, or some outfit looking to rebrand and volume distribute yourself. Chromes from them are probably gone for good. But in anything like a custom run of anything else, just be happy if it's less than seven figures. Maybe if it one of their old standby products, but I wouldn't hold my breath. If you want them to stay in business, keep buying what they offer now.

removed account4 · Mar 23, 2012

i find it very strange that they dismantled the whole processing side of their business,
killed off paper, sold off the chemistry division, has discontinued emulsion after emulsion.
then a month or so after they file for bankruptcy, say they are going to resurrect all their old
emulsions in a boutique quantities ... they just raised their prices again by 15%, i can only imagine
how much their new boutique line of film will cost the consumer. a 100sheet box of tmy has more than doubled in price in the
past 10 years, if in boutique amounts made its going to cost 4x what i paid 10years ago ... in the middle of a recession, i don't think
many people will buy already excessively expensive film.
but then again, maybe they are just coming to their senses ?
maybe they will sell master rolls of sheet film to our good friends in california to cut to custom sizes, notch and package ...

eddie said:
As much as I'd like to see some of the wishes posted here come true (especially Pan-X), I've often wondered (if, indeed, Kodak is committed to film) why they don't have a presence here, on APUG. Talk about the target market... If a Kodak rep was as accessible as Mr. Galley is for Ilford, we wouldn't need to speculate. Seems like a no-brainer, to me. One of the reasons I'm using more Ilford products than in the past is Simon's presence here. His participation speaks volumes about Ilford's commitment, and the increasing loyalty I have for Ilford products.

hi eddie,
i know exactly what you mean. having simon here is the icing on the cake !
with no one from KOduck here, this is just 11 pages of speculation ...

railwayman3 · Mar 23, 2012

jnanian said:
hi eddie,
i know exactly what you mean. having simon here is the icing on the cake !
with no one from KOduck here, this is just 11 pages of speculation ...

I have never understood why no-one from Kodak ever seems to appear here....surely it's a no brainer that this is an ideal way (presumably at little or no cost?) of communicating directly with genuine enthusiasts? I think that PE has said that APUG is read by Kodak people, but that means nothing.

(OTOH, Kodak seem to have missed the obvious for years now, so maybe I shouldn't be surprised.... )

clayne · Mar 23, 2012

georg16nik said:
As for Tmax, well Rollei Retro 80S completely murders Tmax in all regards and have the same speed. It has been talked about many times.
Both, Adox CMS and Retro Retro 80S and some other films are in fact made by AGFA, so QC is top notch and more than whats needed.
AGFA don't sell directly to end customers anymore, only biz to biz, hence You have Adox and Rollei doing what they are doing.
Same story with papers.

Basically murders how? Sharpness or some other benchmarker-based number? They're not even remotely the same kind of film. A Toyota murders a Ferrari on gas mileage too.

You can't shoot everything with 80S.

Nelson · Mar 23, 2012

If film regains the popularity that other "forgotten" items have, such as vinyl records, Kodak could be on to something. Who would have thought in the late '90s that records would be as popular as they are now? Some 2 or 3 million vinyl albums were sold last year, more than in 1991. Same could happen with film as well.

CGW · Mar 23, 2012

jnanian said:

i find it very strange that they dismantled the whole processing side of their business,
killed off paper, sold off the chemistry division, has discontinued emulsion after emulsion.
then a month or so after they file for bankruptcy, say they are going to resurrect all their old
emulsions in a boutique quantities ... they just raised their prices again by 15%, i can only imagine
how much their new boutique line of film will cost the consumer. a 100sheet box of tmy has more than doubled in price in the
past 10 years, if in boutique amounts made its going to cost 4x what i paid 10years ago ... in the middle of a recession, i don't think
many people will buy already excessively expensive film.
but then again, maybe they are just coming to their senses ?
maybe they will sell master rolls of sheet film to our good friends in california to cut to custom sizes, notch and package ...

Click to expand...

jnanian said:
Might be best just to chill on this one. I'm still looking for a press release. To date, this amounts to "unnamed sources say..." and may be what an over-refreshed Kodak rep said to an over-refreshed audience. Who knows? Back to warming up some film.

georg16nik · Mar 23, 2012

clayne said:
Basically murders how? Sharpness or some other benchmarker-based number? They're not even remotely the same kind of film. A Toyota murders a Ferrari on gas mileage too.

You can't shoot everything with 80S.

Yes, You can shoot everything with 80S, if You've tried it and dev in the appropriate developers., You would know it.
On top of that 80S is sensitive up to 750nm, so its IR capable film.

Some folks say that You can't develop everything in Rodinal but if You know what You are doing, then its like a walk in the park.

CGW said:
..To date, this amounts to "unnamed sources say..." and may be what an over-refreshed Kodak rep said to an over-refreshed audience. Who knows? Back to warming up some film.

Obviously, there was an event.

zsas said:
The meeting looks legit
http://www.smpte.org/sections/hollywood/events/hollywood-section-meeting-march-20-2012

thou, the page is deleted now but still safe in google's cache

[h=2]Hollywood Section Meeting March 20, 2012[/h]
Section Meeting

Tue, 03/20/2012 - 6:30pm - 9:30pm

HOLLYWOOD SECTION MEETING
TUESDAY, MARCH 20, 2012
The next section meeting date will be on Tuesday, March 20th at the Linwood Dunn Theater.
Reception at 6:30pm, and the program will start at 7:30pm
The subject will be:
THE TECHNOLOGY OF FILM, FROM THE BEGINNING UNTIL NOW, presented by
Beverly Pasterczyk.
More details will be posted soon.
[h=3]Location[/h] Linwood Dunn Theater 1313 N. Vine St.
Los Angeles, CA 90038United States
34° 5' 40.6572" N, 118° 19' 37.164" W

Looks like Ms. Pasterczyk might be reached here http://www.smpte.org/smpte/70066/contact

Ken Nadvornick · Mar 23, 2012

georg16nik said:
Looks like Ms. Pasterczyk might be reached here http://www.smpte.org/smpte/70066/contact

There 'ya go, CGW...

Ken

CGW · Mar 23, 2012

georg16nik said:
Yes, You can shoot everything with 80S, if You've tried it and dev in the appropriate developers., You would know it.
On top of that 80S is sensitive up to 750nm, so its IR capable film.

Some folks say that You can't develop everything in Rodinal but if You know what You are doing, then its like a walk in the park.

Obviously, there was an event.

thou, the page is deleted now but still safe in google's cache

Looks like Ms. Pasterczyk might be reached here http://www.smpte.org/smpte/70066/contact

Go ahead and see if she responds. I've seen the SMPTE notice, thanks, when I tried to drill down. I'm still waiting, though, for the OP to post a link to his source.

georg16nik · Mar 23, 2012

CGW said:
Go ahead and see if she responds. I've seen the SMPTE notice, thanks, when I tried to drill down. I'm still waiting, though, for the OP to post a link to his source.

A friend of mine from the movie biz in Hollywood already sent her an email.
I will let You guys know.

DREW WILEY · Mar 23, 2012

Trying to compare TMax to Rollei based upon the requirement of enlarging 35mm negs its a pretty narrow perspective. TMX is very consistently mfg and remarkably versatile, coming in multiple formats, and responding
in a very predictable fashion in many difficult technical scenarios. I don't personally do general shooting in 35mm
either (though I have for expensive clients, when the look was appropriate), but do use it in the lab for various
tricky things like color separation negs and masks; and in the past, as a very predictable film for architectural shots in large format. I love it in 8x10 as a portrait film. It has great micro-contrast and a very long scale, with
excellent separation deep into the shadows. Needs to be correctly metered, however - not a film for bozos. For
general outdoor shooting I prefer its faster cousin, TMY-2. But my idea of a really big enlargment from 35mm is
8X10! Want a big print, get a big camera!

wblynch · Mar 23, 2012

I believe there was an enterprising soul who was getting special runs of Kodak film to cut into sheets, re-box and distribute. I think the magic number from Kodak was $50,000 for such an order.

This has to be verified of course, but a $50,000 minimum to get a special run does not sound insurmountable.

Roger Cole · Mar 23, 2012

It isn't insurmountable if a dealer or group of dealers gets together and does it. They can project demand over, say, a year, and put in an order. Things might run out toward the end, or a bit might be left over and sold off at closeout, but it could work well that way.

I keep reading about how the price will increase. Why should it increase with smaller runs necessarily? It's quite possible that the reason the price is where it is now is that they have to produce more than they can sell and have a lot of waste, and that the big machines require a lot more material to make a run than they can actually sell in resulting product. In other words, "right sized" production could actually lower costs and thus, ideally, prices - or, more likely, maybe hold the line on further increases.

Roger Cole · Mar 23, 2012

DREW WILEY said:
Why we're very unlikely to see any of these past films resurrected is that everyone wants certain favorites,
and Kodak has already done an excellent job of making their remaining film lineup the most versatile ever.
Pooling buying power on specialty products isn't that easy unless you're gov't, a huge industrial user, or some outfit looking to rebrand and volume distribute yourself. Chromes from them are probably gone for good. But in anything like a custom run of anything else, just be happy if it's less than seven figures. Maybe if it one of their old standby products, but I wouldn't hold my breath. If you want them to stay in business, keep buying what they offer now.

I fear you may well be right, though it isn't that bad because, as you say, their current films are so good.

If any discontinued films were to be brought back I think E6, being the most recently discontinued, would be the most likely. E100G also fits a niche that nobody else fills right now, a moderate contrast transparency film. Ok, Astia is a bit better in that regard and still readily available in 4x5 and 120, but not in 35mm or larger sizes and it's remaining stock only.

BUT - I keep remembering my conversation with the Freestyle rep when I called to check on stock of 35mm E100G. He said they just got in 200 or 250 rolls, forget which, and "we usually sell about 10 rolls a month so you should be fine." Ten rolls a MONTH in 35mm, for what is certainly one of the biggest dealers in North America. No wonder they discontinued it, and no wonder I agree that the odds of getting it back would be slim.

Jedidiah Smith · Mar 23, 2012

wblynch said:
...

This has to be verified of course, but a $50,000 minimum to get a special run does not sound insurmountable.

If that is a ball-park number, then we're talking some doable things here. That's $500 up front from 100 people. Not hard to do anymore with the way the Internet brings us all together. The question in my mind would be, is that the cost for an emulsion "ready to go" as in, already in production this minute, or is that the cost for a batch of something "that was shelved" as in, a film they quit producing months or years ago?

Curt · Mar 23, 2012

I did in one word.

thomas l · Mar 23, 2012

georg16nik said:
As for Tmax, well Rollei Retro 80S completely murders Tmax in all regards and have the same speed.

Rollei 80s is an aerial film, so it is a special film and does not murder TMAX as a photographic film. It is a special film, which can also be used for special purposes for photography, but it is never a substitute for TMAX. Only Hartmuth Schroeder and his special advertisers are always telling wonderful fairytales about this film (even Maco/Rollei does not tell this fairytales - don't forget he is not a manager of this company anymore!).

It would be great if Kodak's film division makes a comeback as a small good company Let's hope

Jeff Searust · Mar 23, 2012

Been discussing this rumor with the boys in the store, and the consensus is that it may be true... Just remember the whole film with processing included business model is the way Kodak started and was run for many years. I see the whole small batch idea to be very possible, and I know if Kodak wants to go that direction, that they will be getting a lot of my money in the end.

removed account4 · Mar 23, 2012

wblynch said:
I believe there was an enterprising soul who was getting special runs of Kodak film to cut into sheets, re-box and distribute. I think the magic number from Kodak was $50,000 for such an order.

This has to be verified of course, but a $50,000 minimum to get a special run does not sound insurmountable.

i think it was keith canham who was doing special runs of film for the ULF crowd, and it was way-less than $50K ... way-less ..
but i could be wrong ...

Jeff Searust said:
Been discussing this rumor with the boys in the store, and the consensus is that it may be true... Just remember the whole film with processing included business model is the way Kodak started and was run for many years. I see the whole small batch idea to be very possible, and I know if Kodak wants to go that direction, that they will be getting a lot of my money in the end.

it was a great business model ! and was what eastman kodak was built upon. shoot the film, send the camera in, get the film processed +printed
and the camera reloaded ...

it is too bad john garo isn't around to run the lab-side of things .. he was the best of his generation ..

DREW WILEY · Mar 23, 2012

Keith Canham wasn't getting any kind of custom film. He was merely collector group orders for special cuts of
extant film runs, primarily in 8x10, a size just recently discontinued by Kodak anyway. I participated in
a couple of these group orders and am quite grateful to Keith for organizing it and handling the distribution. But
we're talking about films which are being coated fairly frequently anyway, and just having part of the master roll
dedicated to different packaging based on Kodaks minimum quantities for doing so. Coming up with a whole different emulsion than one already in the pipeline is a completely different question, even if they offered it in
the past. I'm no expert at it, but making film is both art and science, and some thing probably can't be resurrected if the people who knew the finer tricks have already retired or found work elsewhere, or if the
proprietary batching gear is gone, or if a special coating base was needed. The legendary Super-XX is a case
in instance, as is Tech Pan. And coming up with a whole new designer emulsion would be even more expensive
because you're got fresh R&D expense, and someone (other than them) would have to risk a backfire if the first
batch was off and didn't sell. There are already companies out there who will contract that sort of thing, at least in black and white products.

Kodak Comeback, Quick Read

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