Kodak Comeback, Quick Read

Thomas Bertilsson · Mar 22, 2012

Well, if there's any hint of reality in the statements made, I'd like to see two things discussed:
1. Cost. I don't know about the rest of you, but often times when products are in their curve of demise, producers will raise prices, because those who really want it badly enough will pay a very high premium anyway.
2. Supply integrity. I don't want Kodak films to be like some of the items Freestyle carry, where they all of a sudden run out of stock and can't get any more for a month or two. It has to be readily available.

I'm also cautiously optimistic. It's either this, or 'give up film' for Kodak. I would love to see Kodak Ektalure paper brought back, or how about Kodabromide? Yeah. We have enough films, but paper is what I'm really worried about.

jglass · Mar 22, 2012

I LOVE optimism on this topic, even if cautious. I think maybe Kodak is like a lot of our economy: un-shackled from blind, greedy, stupid managers, good products may have a chance of improving out lives.

MDR · Mar 22, 2012

Micheal don't discount Tasma film. They offer a range of Motion Picture B&W Films (Nk1, Nk2 and NK3) that are equal or better than Kodak's MP B&W stocks unfortunately their availability is a bit of problem. I agree with you that Kodak, Ilford and Fuji offer the best products for classic photographic use in terms of Q.C.

Dominik

Moopheus · Mar 22, 2012

Thomas Bertilsson said:
Well, if there's any hint of reality in the statements made, I'd like to see two things discussed:
1. Cost. I don't know about the rest of you, but often times when products are in their curve of demise, producers will raise prices, because those who really want it badly enough will pay a very high premium anyway.
2. Supply integrity. I don't want Kodak films to be like some of the items Freestyle carry, where they all of a sudden run out of stock and can't get any more for a month or two. It has to be readily available.

It's all a matter of demand, isn't it? If there's enough demand for a product (say Tri-X or Portra) to keep the lines running and distribution channels filled, that will happen. If it's more on-demand fulfillment, supply may be spotty. Prices likely higher per unit. Are they going to use projections and make, say, a six-month supply at one go? A year? That's basically what they were doing with Kodachrome. How much inventory do they want to hold? As little as possible, I'd guess.

One question that comes to mind: if Kodak can do it, can Fuji do it too? They aren't as bad off financially as Kodak, because they've managed better with the digital transition. But they are cutting products. I like Acros and would like to know they can keep making it.

CGW · Mar 22, 2012

zsas said:
The meeting looks legit
http://www.smpte.org/sections/hollywood/events/hollywood-section-meeting-march-20-2012

Fine but I'd still really like to see a transcript of her talk and/or credible press coverage. Otherwise, all we know is that she spoke at SMPTE on 3/20. Frankly, if Kodak used this occasion to announce something wonderful, it's not shown up anywhere else aside from the OP's 2nd hand reference, right?

zsas · Mar 22, 2012

Agree, wd be nice if they post a video of the meeting. Didnt some spokesperson accidently reveal a new cellphone model the other day in Japan recently, think the person uploaded a pic of this phone to Flikr accidently and let the cat out'a the bag....me hopes it was a slip at that meeting that might be true...

Thomas Bertilsson · Mar 22, 2012

Moopheus said:
It's all a matter of demand, isn't it? If there's enough demand for a product (say Tri-X or Portra) to keep the lines running and distribution channels filled, that will happen. If it's more on-demand fulfillment, supply may be spotty. Prices likely higher per unit. Are they going to use projections and make, say, a six-month supply at one go? A year? That's basically what they were doing with Kodachrome. How much inventory do they want to hold? As little as possible, I'd guess.

One question that comes to mind: if Kodak can do it, can Fuji do it too? They aren't as bad off financially as Kodak, because they've managed better with the digital transition. But they are cutting products. I like Acros and would like to know they can keep making it.

Absolutely it's about demand, and you're right about inventory too - mismanaged inventory ties up cash like crazy and I imagine shorter runs 'on demand' is a way to alleviate the need for large inventory of raw material, in process, and finished goods.
I work in an environment where we're always hounded about forecasting properly, and keeping inventory levels down. It's tough for purchasing, marketing managers, and supply chain people to really gel and have as little as possible in inventory, while at the same time having excellent on-time delivery to customers.

BrianL · Mar 22, 2012

Oh, maybe Tech Pan and original Kodachrome 25. Wonder how many rolls of 35mm or 120 would justify the production run. Problem with each of course is the companion developer systems and chemicals that Kodak would need to produce. Maybe economical if only 1 processing center and shooters were willing to wait until Kodak had enough film to turn on the machines to process the film.

Ken Nadvornick · Mar 22, 2012

CGW said:
Anyone noted the trajectory of demand for film? It doesn't appear to be up, does it?

Nope. Which is why the whole point of this thread has to do with the possibility of Kodak restructuring their film manufacturing model down to the boutique level to match that trajectory. We were all aware of the drop in demand issue 5 years ago. Again, that's old, old news and that horse became pulp long ago. The question now is what happens next?

Gotta keep up with the topic, CGW...

Ken

pbromaghin · Mar 22, 2012

PKM-25 said:
.I think some on here have spiked the bong water with vodka, lol!

Wowww, I've done that, Man...

MattKing · Mar 22, 2012

My biggest concern would be if Ms. Pasterczyk's words relate more to the people in the film division trying to save their employment and that entity's future than the expectations and plans of Eastman Kodak's management and bankruptcy trustees.

And as for the obligations to employees, it may be possible for there to be reasonable compromises for those, particularly considering the fact that the pensions for already retired employees appear to be excluded from the bankruptcy and relatively well funded.

CGW · Mar 22, 2012

Which is why the whole point of this thread has to do with the possibility of Kodak restructuring their film manufacturing model down to the boutique level to match that trajectory.

No interest at all in possibilities(e.g., K-64 back from the dead). I'm struck by high implausibility of such "restructuring" that would have Kodak verging on artisanal manufacture of film materials relative to their current organization. Can't imagine investors throwing $ at a product whose market is withering away.

Funny how the collapse of film demand appears not to be "old news" around here given the passionate denials of the past few months. The "topic" remains pure blue sky, Ken.

Still waiting for some good news from Rochester.

Ken Nadvornick · Mar 22, 2012

CGW said:
No interest at all in possibilities...

Yes, this is also old news to us...

Ken

Diapositivo · Mar 22, 2012

Besides the hypothesis of reviving Kodachrome, which probably is the last material to be resuscitated, the general idea looks very promising.

In this internet age, big shops might collect orders paid upfront, and send the order to Kodak as soon as they reach a certain quantity.

Kodak would only have to make the film and deliver it. No big expenses in marketing, branding, and very importantly no inventory risk, they would know the entire production is sold when they start the coating machine.

I imagine a future in which the rolls will have a generic box and cartridge equal for all films of the same format, with a stamp on it simply stating Dreamachrome 2 Batch 76/15 exp. 12/17. A bit like medicines on demand.

Firms like Amazon would have no great difficulties in collecting orders and money, sending manufacturing orders to Kodak, receiving great quantities from them, and sending to each individual purchaser. That's what they do already.

Costs would IMO probably decrease in comparison to today, due to intermediate rings in the distributing chains being quite simplified, bulk orders at consumer level (20 rolls or so minimum order), no inventory risks for Kodak and possibly very simplified packaging.

We have to adopt to a world where we order minimum 20 rolls of film each time. No big problem for most film users nowadays.

Fabrizio

batwister · Mar 22, 2012

Diapositivo said:
No big expenses in marketing, branding...

I'm still convinced that they would do well to advertise more broadly, aiming squarely at the hipsters and art student types.

If Kodak are reading, the TV advert would be a sentimental montage charting their history. I can see a happy middle class family, in 60s attire, frolicking on the beach with their Instamatic in one clip.
The final shot would be present day, a student taking photos on his Hipstamatic app, pushed aside by his cooler flatmate with a Hasselblad mid way through opening a beautifully purple box of Portra, ready to load.
The slogan would be 'Kodak, nostalgic for tomorrow'.

CGW · Mar 22, 2012

Ken Nadvornick said:
Yes, this is also old news to us...

Ken

So is the house-brand fabulism in threads like this.

Hatchetman · Mar 22, 2012

batwister said:
I'm still convinced that they would do well to advertise more broadly, aiming squarely at the hipsters and art student types.

I agree with this broad concept, but would target another group with a lot of cash: I can't count the number of upper middle class 40 somethings that I've talked to about my Spotmatic. They get all dreamy-eyed and tell me about their first "true love."

Jedidiah Smith · Mar 22, 2012

Not even sure if it's worth it at this point, but perhaps let me to try explain my post with the discussion of the ADOX film in it.
I have almost always bought Kodak whenever they had what I wanted, ever since my Dad gave me an X-700 for my first camera. Like you, I also feel - and hopefully always will - that Kodak film/chem products are the finest quality in the world.
My post was not to say they should do everything like ADOX. Far from it. My statement was that ADOX is already manufacturing film in this manner, and if they can do it - Kodak certainly has (perhaps had) the R&D knowledge and muscle to figure out how to do this as well. Now, whether they want to - that is a different question altogether. Some of us are very excited that at least someone in the company "gets it".

Lastly, a bit of an aside, but it is truth - what film has Kodak to compare to CMS20 that I may purchase instead? It is non-existent. I have done the tests myself. TMax100 does not hold a candle, if what you want is enlargement capability from a small piece of film.

DREW WILEY · Mar 22, 2012

Jed - Kodak did (and possibly still does) offer microfilm stock which in at least a few instances was
rebranded for generally shooting using special developers. For many years, of course, Tech Pan was
their label for extreme resolution film. I have never particularly cared for the tonality of any of these
films in general photography, and much prefer 25-speed films like Efke 25 and Pan-F-plus for enlarging, with Rollei 25 being a newcomer to the same category, kinda between the other two in
tonal range.

Rudeofus · Mar 22, 2012

PE stated many weeks ago that Kodak has some R&D coating machine which they might dust off and use for production of small batches. Given that Kodak films main product line, movie print film, is on its way out, this move is the most reasonable one. The talk referenced in the thread origin essentially confirms that Kodak indeed plans on going that way and that this is seen as a viable business model.

No big surprises here, but very good news anyway. One number I would really like to hear is "minimum order quantity" for a batch run. If one batch can be had for four digit dollar amounts, a lot of odd ball materials will be available soon. If it is closer to six digits, most likely only the current product lines will remain.

CGW · Mar 22, 2012

From another photo forum, quite interesting! Posted today....

Remain curious why the OP couldn't supply a link to this "other photo forum" where this all appeared.

keithwms · Mar 22, 2012

Just a couple quick thoughts:

(1) it is (and always has been) blazingly obvious that EK's film division can turn a profit... if they are taken out from under the other mountain of debt. Ideally, that's what chp. 11 does- allow subparts of a business to rise out from under the cloud of the parts that failed. I will resist the temptation to point out that certain people among us consider(ed) this impossible. But....

(2) That this or that film might come back or be continued in smaller volume doesn't say anything at all about the prices of those products. You adapt the manufacturing volume to optimize profit- obviously you don't make small volumes on a high-volume line. That doesn't bode well at all for anyone associated with the high volume facility nor the American market per se. Offhand I'd guess this all means that the recipes and some of the talent will be shipped elsewhere e.g. to Fuji, and that's it.

(3) I do ask myself what the Kodak brand is really worth, when all Kodak users remember all too well what they've done to their people and their products over the last few years. EK has curried outright hatred in recent years and is right on the ragged edge of having absolutely no user base- they've been doing everything possible to alienate their core clients for years now. To be blunt, I think it'd be a miracle to see certain products come back, but the greater miracle would be for an appreciable number of people to care if they did. Most of us who were investing in Kodak film products took careful note around the time that HIE went away... and there's a lot of water under the bridge since then...

I do hope, of course, that there are good jobs and good products for people right there at the main EK facility. Let us see. In spite of (2) and (3), I sincerely wish them well.

wblynch · Mar 22, 2012

Sounds like a task for The Celebrity Apprentice !

"Your task this week is to create a viral campaign headlining the use and enjoyment of Kodak Film. Because they are a fabulous company with a long history in American Culture".

"This task will be huge, HUGE, and you better make it good because, as always, someone from the losing team is going to be fired".

batwister said:
I'm still convinced that they would do well to advertise more broadly, aiming squarely at the hipsters and art student types.

If Kodak are reading, the TV advert would be a sentimental montage charting their history. I can see a happy middle class family, in 60s attire, frolicking on the beach with their Instamatic in one clip.
The final shot would be present day, a student taking photos on his Hipstamatic app, pushed aside by his cooler flatmate with a Hasselblad mid way through opening a beautifully purple box of Portra, ready to load.
The slogan would be 'Kodak, nostalgic for tomorrow'.

EASmithV · Mar 22, 2012

YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Now I can make room for food in the freezer!

Roger Cole · Mar 22, 2012

Rudeofus said:
PE stated many weeks ago that Kodak has some R&D coating machine which they might dust off and use for production of small batches. Given that Kodak films main product line, movie print film, is on its way out, this move is the most reasonable one. The talk referenced in the thread origin essentially confirms that Kodak indeed plans on going that way and that this is seen as a viable business model.

No big surprises here, but very good news anyway. One number I would really like to hear is "minimum order quantity" for a batch run. If one batch can be had for four digit dollar amounts, a lot of odd ball materials will be available soon. If it is closer to six digits, most likely only the current product lines will remain.

Kodachrome blue sky is just for fun at this stage (something some don't seem to understand - bet they never, ever, buy even a single lottery ticket either) but I'd personally be quite happy with the continuation of current product lines. If we could ease E100G and VS into that category too then all the better.

Kodak Comeback, Quick Read

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