Kodak Comeback, Quick Read

[CGW]

It is with great sadness that I read this thread. The value of all my film equipment continues to fall, as the films vanish, and great former Yellow Box God continues to shrink. But a question crossed my mind...

Where is the source of all the film used for reconnaissance purposes by the US Military?! Have recon cameras gone digital, too?

As for the economics over time evolving, I'd like to offer these observations...

• When I was a freshman in college at a private university, I paid $1200 per year in tuition cost. My first job was at $12k per year, or 10 times what I paid in tuition during my freshman year.
• Today, that same university costs $38400 per year just for tuition; can you imagine anyone hoping for $384K per year in salary, let alone one year out of college?!
• Many years ago, we could expect 4% interest on a simple passbook savings account in the bank; our money would double in value at that rate every 18 years. About the rate of inflation.
• Now, we could expect 0.5% interest on a simple passbook savings account in the bank; our money would double in value at that rate every 144 years. But inflation is higher, at about 3.5-4%, so no point in putting any money in the back, inflation eats it up!

More good news:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/13/b...own-a-generation-with-heavy-debt.html?_r=1&hp

 

[removed account4]

it would be nice if they did all these thing that are suggested
but their current pricing is kind of over the top!
100 sheets of 4x5 film ( tmy ) is nearly double what ilford charges
and close to triple what the eastern european films are.
i was going to buy some recently, but couldn't justify the cost
no matter how much i have shot this film in the last 20 years
(thousands of sheets and rolls &c ) ...
i wish kodak the best, but my at the prices they are charging
you need to be independently wealthy to buy+use it.

 

[Photo Engineer]

When I started college, the total tuition was under $400 / semester, but the minimum wage was $0.50 / hour.

Most chemistry courses nowdays center around Forensic science.

Just some thoughts.

Oh, and after 34 pages, this is NOT a quick read.

PE

 

[Old-N-Feeble]

Living in the USA is DEFINITELY NOT CHEAP NOR FISCALLY FAIR. I'll probably move elsewhere when I retire.

 

[CGW]

it would be nice if they did all these thing that are suggested
but their current pricing is kind of over the top!
100 sheets of 4x5 film ( tmy ) is nearly double what ilford charges
and close to triple what the eastern european films are.
i was going to buy some recently, but couldn't justify the cost
no matter how much i have shot this film in the last 20 years
(thousands of sheets and rolls &c ) ...
i wish kodak the best, but my at the prices they are charging
you need to be independently wealthy to buy+use it.

Agree. Despite my flagrantly over-reported pessimism, I'm truly concerned that price is building as the biggest downdraft on demand for Kodak product. Local pricing here in Toronto--thanks, apparently, to no steady wholesale supplier--is climbing and it's still cheaper to buy from B&H. Suck it up? For now, yeah. But sinking demand-->higher prices-->lower demand-->even higher prices. People loathed old Aristophanes hereabouts but he knew the economics no one really wanted to face.

 

[RattyMouse]

Agree. Despite my flagrantly over-reported pessimism, I'm truly concerned that price is building as the biggest downdraft on demand for Kodak product. Local pricing here in Toronto--thanks, apparently, to no steady wholesale supplier--is climbing and it's still cheaper to buy from B&H. Suck it up? For now, yeah. But sinking demand-->higher prices-->lower demand-->even higher prices. People loathed old Aristophanes hereabouts but he knew the economics no one really wanted to face.

It was very disappointing to see how Aristophanes was treated by some here. To an objective observer such as myself, I could clearly see he was no troll. The guy clearly knows what he is talking about regarding corporate economics. I never sensed he was happy about the seemingly unstoppable demise of film. He was just reading the cards as they continued to be dealt.

 

[RattyMouse]

PE... If one wishes to be a physicist, chemist or mathematician then they'd better be damned good at it and work for an American pharmaceutical company or anywhere outside the USA... like China... or India... or Brazil... or??

Pharma is no good place to go. I'm a chemist with friends who work for big pharmaceutical companies in the US. They are survivors, as there have been massive layoffs across the industry as it has consolidated. After that, outsourcing to Asian labs is the next big threat. Guys with 20 years experience designing medicines to fight cancer are completely afraid for their jobs. It truly is a pathetic world now.

 

[Old-N-Feeble]

Ratty, a damned shame for certain and pathetic it truly is. God Bless the USA... Our world-class corporations are SO DEDICATED to our country and it's people...

 

[removed account4]

Agree. Despite my flagrantly over-reported pessimism, I'm truly concerned that price is building as the biggest downdraft on demand for Kodak product. Local pricing here in Toronto--thanks, apparently, to no steady wholesale supplier--is climbing and it's still cheaper to buy from B&H. Suck it up? For now, yeah. But sinking demand-->higher prices-->lower demand-->even higher prices. People loathed old Aristophanes hereabouts but he knew the economics no one really wanted to face.

cgw

i don't think you are a pessimist, you are a realist ..
no one wants to read or see or hear what they know to be true.
( i agree with most of what you say ... )

i know what you mean, i thought about how if i don't buy it now it was going to be more expensive
because my measly 200 sheets would have kept the price down ... but then i realized
that i don't have $360 to spend on 180$, or 90$ of film. i would rather not eat ( or make my family eat )
mac+cheese or ramen-noodles or PBJ sandwiches for a few months because i splurged on film.
besides i don't think my 200 sheets will be missed one bit ... i bought 200 sheets a few months
ago and it wasn't noticed, they raised the prices before and afterwards.

john

 

[Photo Engineer]

It was very disappointing to see how Aristophanes was treated by some here. To an objective observer such as myself, I could clearly see he was no troll. The guy clearly knows what he is talking about regarding corporate economics. I never sensed he was happy about the seemingly unstoppable demise of film. He was just reading the cards as they continued to be dealt.

If he was so correct, how could so many people poke so many holes in his arguments? I think that is what I noticed more than anything else. His feelings about analog are, as you say and I agree.

Pe

 

[lxdude]

A cogent point, PE.
He had a point of view, and it was based at least in part on his background, but that didn't make his opinions right.
More than once he misinterpreted events at Kodak, stating they indicated something which was not so.
So he got challenged, and rightly so.

 

[CGW]

A cogent point, PE.
He had a point of view, and it was based at least in part on his background, but that didn't make his opinions right.
He misinterpreted data more than once.

OK, like what? He understood microeconomics and didn't have much time for the magical thinking, fabulism, and misinformation often used to counter his arguments. Been awhile since I've seen a messenger shot up as badly.

 

[lxdude]

It's hard to quote him, because when he left he took his posts with him.

But after the dissolution of the 3 separate groups and establishment of the current commercial and consumer groups, he said that the film division was gone. And he meant gone. It wasn't, of course-only the external structure changed, with the film division serving both.

He also declared that a condition of bankruptcy was that film production would cease. He somehow gleaned that out of the statements, saying that it would be a requirement in that situation. He was wrong; no one else here could find what he was talking about, but did find some statements which contradicted that.

He wasn't a messenger-he was a person with an opinion. People working in finance are often sure of opinions which turn out to be wrong. A lot of people have become painfully aware of that in the last several years.

 

[Photo Engineer]

He also stated that the film division was not making money, but it is. In fact, for the last several years it is the only manufacturing division at EK that has steadily returned a profit. Although it is also steadily decreasing mostly due to the decline in MP use which was thoroughly reported in another series of threads.

PE

 

[Hatchetman]

I read a quote in the Wall Street Journal today, by The Intelligent Investor columnist, Jason Zweig. He was broadly talking about risk management and the "Feynman Principle," which states "You must not fool yourself - you are the easiest person to fool."

Nobody knows how this thing is going to play out.

 

[CGW]

He also stated that the film division was not making money, but it is. In fact, for the last several years it is the only manufacturing division at EK that has steadily returned a profit. Although it is also steadily decreasing mostly due to the decline in MP use which was thoroughly reported in another series of threads.

PE

All he did was state the obvious: when gravely wounded in all four limbs, it's cold comfort that to know you're bleeding less from your right arm. Exsanguination results anyway.

 

[lxdude]

All he did was state the obvious: when gravely wounded in all four limbs, it's cold comfort that to know you're bleeding less from your right arm. Exsanguination results regardless.

That is not what he did. He stated flatly that the film division was not profitable, when the financial reports stated otherwise.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Not if you cauterize the wounds in the worst limbs. In this case, the film and chemicals divisions were doing well, but digital printers were doing poorly. Perez kept pushing digital printers in the face of HP and Canon and it just was not and is not working out.

If you keep doing the same thing over and over and expect different results, well, this is a sign that something serious is wrong. In this case, as stated elsewhere, the wrong divisions were sold or scaled back. In fact, to state it more broadly, Kodak is/was a chemical company, but they sold off all of their chemical divisions which seem to be doing well. One shining example is Eastman Chemical at Kingsport Tenn.

PE

 

[CGW]

That is not what he did. He stated flatly that the film division was not profitable, when the financial reports stated otherwise.

Too bad his posts got scrubbed. We'll see where things stand later in the year. It's not a robust company, as we all know.

Many here resented--and rejected--his arguments that demand for film was in freefall and far from bottoming out. I'm not seeing data that contravene this.

 

[PKM-25]

Too bad his posts got scrubbed. We'll see where things stand later in the year. It's not a robust company, as we all know.

Many here resented--and rejected--his arguments that demand for film was in freefall and far from bottoming out. I'm not seeing data that contravene this.

We get this, I get this and after some private message sessions with him, I understood where he was coming from. At least he replied to my messages, you did not.

I think it sucks he is gone and I think it really sucks his posts are gone. He can be found on RFF...

But he could no sooner answer the question in private that I had asked him on the threads: What are we photographers supposed to do with this information? Some of us are technical photographers, some are emotional ones, either way, it's pretty obvious that outside of framing our own pursuits of furthering the future of film, we are at the mercy of many forces of both economic and societal shifts...

So what are we supposed to do? If film is doomed at least in terms of Kodak product like some of the speculation may suggest, what the hell is a creative person who likes the option of film to do?

Any suggestions CGW? Because frankly the fact I try to inspire to people by telling them details about what I do daily to keep positive about the future of film being labled by you as an effing press release has more people than just me wondering what in the hell your aim is on this site...


We get the doom and gloom man, we are not stupid, we just don't know what the f__k to do about it other than put our best foot and film based image forward.

 

[Diapositivo]

Future is unknown to everybody, including the Cassandras of this site. They might be right. They might be wrong. We don't know and they don't know. "Past performance is not an indication of future results", that's true also as far as film sales are concerned.

I don't understand in which way "pessimism" might influence the photographer, be it professional or digital.
If your clients go on requesting analogue work, or if you like making analogue work, just buy films and chemicals and go on with your business.
When it is not anymore possible to do so, switch to something else.

We'll have to die one day which shouldn't prevent us from living now.
The fact that a certain film might be discontinued in the future does not prevent me from using it now and does not discourage me in any way. My investment in cameras and darkroom equipment is already done.

The only persons who might be affected by this kind of speculations are those who are just now making an investment in film cameras. But film cameras being still relatively cheap, that shouldn't discourage them either.

Speculation about the future is not going to be conducive to anything useful for our hobby/profession, whether you are a pessimist or an optimist.

I'm an optimist but I would go on using film even if I were a pessimist. Actually I would use more of it if I were a pessimist.

Fabrizio

 

[Photo Engineer]

Film is in decline and we do not know when it will bottom out.

So, while we have it, and life itself, we should do the best we can with what we have.

PE

 

[Sal Santamaura]

...What are we photographers supposed to do with this information? Some of us are technical photographers, some are emotional ones, either way, it's pretty obvious that outside of framing our own pursuits of furthering the future of film, we are at the mercy of many forces of both economic and societal shifts...

So what are we supposed to do? If film is doomed at least in terms of Kodak product like some of the speculation may suggest, what the hell is a creative person who likes the option of film to do?

Any suggestions CGW? Because frankly the fact I try to inspire to people by telling them details about what I do daily to keep positive about the future of film being labled by you as an effing press release has more people than just me wondering what in the hell your aim is on this site...

Dan, thanks for framing that response so well. You're quite a bit younger than I and, therefore, still retain a patience when dealing with this relentless drumbeat which, unfortunately, tends to fade over the years.

If only people on one's Ignore List weren't quoted.