Kodak Color Negative C41 Kit

MattKing said:

I spent a fair amount of time in my younger years both selling photography and doing colour printing for others who sold their photography.
As a result, I tend to be really bothered by the sort of colour problems that many others barely notice. A small amount of colour crossover is enough to distract me from the content of a print. And a 10CC colour cast is enough to make me shiver -
So yes, quality expectation varies - and not just because of the intended use.

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Yep, it's a heck of a lot easier to get a nice print (or scan) if you start with a normally processed negative. I remember in my youth struggling for hours trying to find the right "filter pack" using acetate filters in my enlarger. These days I shoot nothing but Portra 160 or Ektar. Usually the printing filtration stays pretty close for each film type. I shoot everything in daylight or with fill flash. No trying to shoot color with artificial light, that's when I get out a digital camera with miraculous auto white balance (this is the greatest thing about digital ).

A improperly exposed and developed negative can be printed easily if you are scanning and printing with a machine, not by me in my darkroom

"
Hi Faith,

Alex from CineStill here. Thank you for reaching out about your interest in the 2.5L Kodak C-41 Kit. The Kodak kits are able to be used one-shot or replenished and do not require any adjustment to times for rolls previously processed. If you use the chemistry one-shot, simply pour the chemistry into your tank using the solution needed by your developing tank and dispose after usage.

We are currently working on some updates to the instructions that more clearly spell out how to replenish the chemistry. In the meantime, I can provide some basic tips:

The user mixes the chemical concentrates in the kit to make 2.5L total of each chemical, and then decides how much of each chemical they want to divide into a working tank solution and a replenisher solution. One such way to do this is to have 1000mL of working solution and 1500mL of replenisher solution.

The replenishment rate for the Developer, Bleach, Fixer, and Final Rinse is ~40mL/roll. After each processing session you will first pour ~40mL/roll of Developer, Bleach, Fixer, and Final Rinse replenisher solution into the corresponding working solution’s storage bottle, then top it off with the working tank solution that was just used to process the film, discarding the excess/overflow chemistry (~40mL/roll) according to your local regulations.

As you can see, you will start to use up replenisher solutions until you don't have any left. At which point you can mix up more chemistry by purchasing another 2.5L or 5L kit. You can theoretically keep replenishing indefinitely; this is what film processing labs do. It's a good idea to conduct regular Snip Tests to determine if the chemistry is still active. Doing so only takes a few minutes, and in our opinion is worth it to avoid getting a blank roll due to exhausted Developer.

I hope that helps! Let us know if you have any other questions, and have a great rest of your day.

Sincerely,

Alex Sandoval | CineStill Support
"

This is the response I have received (my name is misspelled quite frequently.

Fatih Ayoglu said:

"
Hi Faith,

Alex from CineStill here. Thank you for reaching out about your interest in the 2.5L Kodak C-41 Kit. The Kodak kits are able to be used one-shot or replenished and do not require any adjustment to times for rolls previously processed. If you use the chemistry one-shot, simply pour the chemistry into your tank using the solution needed by your developing tank and dispose after usage.

We are currently working on some updates to the instructions that more clearly spell out how to replenish the chemistry. In the meantime, I can provide some basic tips:

The user mixes the chemical concentrates in the kit to make 2.5L total of each chemical, and then decides how much of each chemical they want to divide into a working tank solution and a replenisher solution. One such way to do this is to have 1000mL of working solution and 1500mL of replenisher solution.

The replenishment rate for the Developer, Bleach, Fixer, and Final Rinse is ~40mL/roll. After each processing session you will first pour ~40mL/roll of Developer, Bleach, Fixer, and Final Rinse replenisher solution into the corresponding working solution’s storage bottle, then top it off with the working tank solution that was just used to process the film, discarding the excess/overflow chemistry (~40mL/roll) according to your local regulations.

As you can see, you will start to use up replenisher solutions until you don't have any left. At which point you can mix up more chemistry by purchasing another 2.5L or 5L kit. You can theoretically keep replenishing indefinitely; this is what film processing labs do. It's a good idea to conduct regular Snip Tests to determine if the chemistry is still active. Doing so only takes a few minutes, and in our opinion is worth it to avoid getting a blank roll due to exhausted Developer.

I hope that helps! Let us know if you have any other questions, and have a great rest of your day.

Sincerely,

Alex Sandoval | CineStill Support
"

This is the response I have received (my name is misspelled quite frequently.

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Which tells us the "developer" is similar to the "Replenisher" in the older, Eastman Kodak versions.

MattKing said:

Which tells us the "developer" is similar to the "Replenisher" in the older, Eastman Kodak versions.

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Yeah, I agree

Fatih Ayoglu said:

"
Hi Faith,

Alex from CineStill here. Thank you for reaching out about your interest in the 2.5L Kodak C-41 Kit. The Kodak kits are able to be used one-shot or replenished and do not require any adjustment to times for rolls previously processed. If you use the chemistry one-shot, simply pour the chemistry into your tank using the solution needed by your developing tank and dispose after usage.

We are currently working on some updates to the instructions that more clearly spell out how to replenish the chemistry. In the meantime, I can provide some basic tips:

The user mixes the chemical concentrates in the kit to make 2.5L total of each chemical, and then decides how much of each chemical they want to divide into a working tank solution and a replenisher solution. One such way to do this is to have 1000mL of working solution and 1500mL of replenisher solution.

The replenishment rate for the Developer, Bleach, Fixer, and Final Rinse is ~40mL/roll. After each processing session you will first pour ~40mL/roll of Developer, Bleach, Fixer, and Final Rinse replenisher solution into the corresponding working solution’s storage bottle, then top it off with the working tank solution that was just used to process the film, discarding the excess/overflow chemistry (~40mL/roll) according to your local regulations.

As you can see, you will start to use up replenisher solutions until you don't have any left. At which point you can mix up more chemistry by purchasing another 2.5L or 5L kit. You can theoretically keep replenishing indefinitely; this is what film processing labs do. It's a good idea to conduct regular Snip Tests to determine if the chemistry is still active. Doing so only takes a few minutes, and in our opinion is worth it to avoid getting a blank roll due to exhausted Developer.

I hope that helps! Let us know if you have any other questions, and have a great rest of your day.

Sincerely,

Alex Sandoval | CineStill Support
"

This is the response I have received (my name is misspelled quite frequently.

Click to expand...

This insures each roll will be different. Also remember that when Eastman Kodak set up these solutions, recommended procedures for roller processing (Jobo) is only use solutions one shot.

You'll reach equilibrium at some point. No big deal.

This is fine for screwing around with 17 different kinds of film, scan and put on the web.

Trying to save money and film photography are mutually exclusive this day in time.

Fatih Ayoglu said:

The user mixes the chemical concentrates in the kit to make 2.5L total of each chemical, and then decides how much of each chemical they want to divide into a working tank solution and a replenisher solution. One such way to do this is to have 1000mL of working solution and 1500mL of replenisher solution.

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I assume the phrase working tank solution is used correctly, as in replenisher and starter. I know some people suggest, if no starter is available, to run a few roll of film through to season the tank solution. Personaly I have never tried it. I always preferred to use starter.

foc said:

I assume the phrase working tank solution is used correctly, as in replenisher and starter. I know some people suggest, if no starter is available, to run a few roll of film through to season the tank solution. Personaly I have never tried it. I always preferred to use starter.

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But the kit does not give any instruction with a starter, to my knowledge it is a standart kit where you add water only

The 40ml per roll suggestion is quite high. That tells me that the developer is already "seasoned" when mixed from the instructions, and the replenishment regime is relying on that relatively high amount of spent developer removal to maintain control over the build up of development byproducts.
So not quite as long term effective or economical as the old Flexicolor products - at least in high volume applications - but due to its relative simplicity, much better suited to the needs of individual users and low to moderate volume commercial users.

Only really repeatable method would be to use one shot. Thus the Jobo. Back in the day Eastman Kodak offered everything from soup to nuts.

I would follow Cinestill recommendations for " good e'nuff" results.

Otherwise people are going to need to spend the time and money to do it by the book. (BTW, the actual book is pretty intimidating holy moly!!)

Best method for me is to use the individual solutions, not a kit and I use one shot. I do replenish the bleach, it's a sin to throw away good bleach.

MattKing said:

The 40ml per roll suggestion is quite high. That tells me that the developer is already "seasoned" when mixed from the instructions, and the replenishment regime is relying on that relatively high amount of spent developer removal to maintain control over the build up of development byproducts.
So not quite as long term effective or economical as the old Flexicolor products - at least in high volume applications - but due to its relative simplicity, much better suited to the needs of individual users and low to moderate volume commercial users.

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Yes, 40mL is way too much

mshchem said:

Yes, 40mL is way too much

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Only if your primary concern is economy, or if your replenisher is significantly different from your working solution.
There are two ways to deal with the build-up of development byproducts in a replenishment regime.
One way is to use very small amounts of a replenisher that is formulated to have less of those byproducts than normal developer. When that is combined with the byproducts that leave due to carryover, the result in a system that will take last long time, and develop many rolls of film, before the byproducts build up to a level that requires discard and replacement of the working strength solution. That is the approach of the traditional commercial colour and D-76 and ID-11 and HC-110 replenishment lines.
The other way is to use the approach that you use for XTol, where the replenishment amount is significantly larger - a starting point of 70 ml per roll - and where at least half of the benefit of the replenishment process comes from the fact that a relatively large amount of byproduct laden used developer is discarded with each roll. It is that removal of byproducts that does half the replenishment job.
One of the two major breakthroughs behind XTol was the creation of the ability to make a self replenishing developer that, if maintained properly, permitted maintenance of a permanent working solution, rather than one that was merely long lived, prior to inevitable need to discard it after X rolls. T-Max RS was another developer that offered that feature. D-76/ID-11 never did, nor did any colour developer I'm aware of.
Perhaps Photo Systems have figured out a way to make C-41 developer behave like XTol in a replenishment regime - no separate replenisher required, and permanent maintenance of a working solution is possible. If so, that is a great accomplishment.
Alternatively, perhaps in a world where volumes are so much lower, and economy/roll may not be as important as simplicity and flexibility, Photo Systems has figured out a way to use replenishment effectively and with reasonable economy. If so, that is valuable too.

Yeah, interesting who knows. I suspect that Fuji now is the 800 pound gorilla when it comes to commercial quantities of chemistry. Kinda a good enough.

I ordered a case of developer starter, I already have a case of the developer replenisher. I suppose I can compare old and new?

MattKing said:

The 40ml per roll suggestion is quite high.

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It's not outrageous, especially not if you keep in mind it's not really a replenisher, but working developer, and their recommendation is basically (as @mshchem also says) to accept drift over the first few rolls until equilibrium is reached. It's technically speaking not a proper replenishment system and densitometry will be drifting for the first couple of dozen of rolls.

MattKing said:

The 40ml per roll suggestion is quite high. That tells me that the developer is already "seasoned" when mixed from the instructions, and the replenishment regime is relying on that relatively high amount of spent developer removal to maintain control over the build up of development byproducts.

Click to expand...

40 ml per "roll" is high? Actually I think the original/standard C-41 developer was higher. 40/ml per roll is probably about half way between the "standard" developer replenisher and LORR (low replenishment rate) replenisher.

MattKing said:

Perhaps Photo Systems have figured out a way to make C-41 developer behave like XTol in a replenishment regime - no separate replenisher required, and permanent working solution...

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Nah, I'm pretty doubtful about that.

I've never seriously "investigated" Xtol, but I'd guess it's self-replenished success is a result of a developing agent being relatively insensitive to development byproducts. This is not the case with the C-41 developing agent.

One reason that C-41 developer can be (properly, in my view) replenished is that it was originally designed with some concentration of bromide already in it (bromide is a principal byproduct of development). When one develops film in a C-41 developer a certain amount of additional bromide ion is released, raising the concentration. A proper replenisher should dilute the bromide back down to the original spec concentration.

Now, over the years there have been replenishers designed for a variety of different replenishment rates. One might wonder, how does this work? Well, the
lowest-rate-possible replenisher would be formulated with zero bromide in it. So whatever volume this replenisher adds is a pure dilution of the developing solution bromide. If a replenisher is designed for a higher replenishment rate then said replenisher should contain SOME bromide, enough that the combination restores the developing solution to the original spec concentration.

Of course there other things going on in a developer replenisher, including bringing the concentration of the developing agent back up to the original spec. Once the designer of the replenisher has established an aim replenishment rate the necessary addition of the developing agent can be worked out in a similar manner.

Given that this particular product carries the Kodak name on it, I'd be skeptical that it would be designed to work outside of the normal specifications. (Cinestill seems to market THEIR OWN PRODUCT, Cs41 developer, and I can see them doing their own thing on that. Just not on a Kodak-branded product. But... I could be wrong; it's not the same Kodak that I used to know.

Mr Bill said:

I've never seriously "investigated" Xtol, but I'd guess it's self-replenished success is a result of a developing agent being relatively insensitive to development byproducts.

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If I look at what people post about replenished XTOL, the comments often involve something along the lines of "the first few rolls are kind of all over the place, but wait until it settles in and stabilizes." This suggests there's considerable drift at the start before equilibrium is reached. I suspect that PhotoSys/Cinestill aim for exactly the same with this spin on C41 developer, which is undoubtedly helped along with the realization that 99.95% of the amateur color film users scan their film and will never even notice the drift across their rolls of film.

Mr Bill said:

Given that this particular product carries the Kodak name on it, I'd be skeptical that it would be designed to work outside of the normal specifications.

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I severely doubt we should interpret the Kodak logo on this as a guarantee that the use with 'replenishment' as suggested here will remain within normal process bandwidth. Simply put, I think PhotoSys and Cinestill are cutting corners here, for understandable commercial reasons, and that Kodak either doesn't care or is not in a position to do anything about it.

MattKing said:

I spent a fair amount of time in my younger years both selling photography and doing colour printing for others who sold their photography.
As a result, I tend to be really bothered by the sort of colour problems that many others barely notice. A small amount of colour crossover is enough to distract me from the content of a print. And a 10CC colour cast is enough to make me shiver -
So yes, quality expectation varies - and not just because of the intended use.

Click to expand...

As I've told people before, this learned skill in judging color can be both a blessing AND a curse. A blessing in that you know, or understand, how to adjust for high quality color. Or a curse in that it's hard to be fully satisfied with most of the work you see. (When people proudly show you their prize photos you don't wanna be totally honest - you gotta keep a filter between your brain and mouth.)

koraks said:

If I look at what people post about replenished XTOL, the comments often involve something along the lines of "the first few rolls are kind of all over the place, but wait until it settles in and stabilizes." This suggests there's considerable drift at the start before equilibrium is reached. I suspect that PhotoSys/Cinestill aim for exactly the same with this spin on C41 developer, which is undoubtedly helped along with the realization that 99.95% of the amateur color film users scan their film and will never even notice the drift across their rolls of film.


I severely doubt we should interpret the Kodak logo on this as a guarantee that the use with 'replenishment' as suggested here will remain within normal process bandwidth. Simply put, I think PhotoSys and Cinestill are cutting corners here, for understandable commercial reasons, and that Kodak either doesn't care or is not in a position to do anything about it.

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Could be... I have no idea how these things are playing out in the real world anymore.

My gut feeling, with respect to being able to use a C-41 developing solution as its own replenisher, at ~40 ml per roll, is that the activity level is gonna take a pretty steep downward path. Even Xtol can't make it at that replenishment rate (I'm judging based on forum posts here). I could probably make some rough calculations and guess where it's going, but not much point to it.

I agree that the system is likely to be unstable. It's inherently impossible to have a color developer be its own replenisher. I can see only two ways to make it 'work':
One is to in fact package a replenisher and then rely on a process of 'seasoning' over the first several rolls - which all will come out significantly (but decreasingly) out-of-bandwidth.
The second is to package a working strength developer which will yield on-spec results for first use, which then trend downward and out of spec as replenishment proceeds.
Neither will consistently yield on-spec results. The system fundamentally cannot work properly.

Ok, for the best possible results (which I will develop for friends and possibly for some other people as well), the best option is to go to Fuji Minilab chemicals as one-shot, so I have this list;
Am I in the right landscape?

• NEG N1-S Developer Starter https://www.processuk.net/product/fuji-c41-developer-starter

• EnviroNeg Developer Replenisher LR AC 2 x 10-ltrs https://www.processuk.net/product/environeg-developer-replenisher-lr-ac-2-x-10-ltrs​

• EnviroNeg RA Bleach Replenisher AC 2 x 5-ltrs https://www.processuk.net/product/environeg-ra-bleach-replenisher-ac-2-x-5-ltrs​

• Negacolor RA Fixer & Replenisher 4x10-litre https://www.processuk.net/product/negacolor-ra-fixer---replenisher-4x10-litre​

• Stabilizer 100-litre https://www.processuk.net/Stabilizer__100-litre/p740597_3426918.aspx​

Am I in the right landscape?

Looks good to me!
I don't know what the possibilities are for getting the best/lowest prices in the UK for what you're trying to do. It's conceivable that ordering overseas and just accepting the shipping + taxes will end up being cheaper overall. You could try and contact FujiFilm HUNT in Belgium and ask for a list of retailers/distributors and then check prices to see what's the most attractive option.

Sadly most of the chemicals cannot be shipped from abroad anymore, some rules, laws, regulations. But I know these prices are much higher than what you are getting

Like retrocamera.be is selling Fuji Hunt XPress 5lt kit for EUR100, in here it is at least GBP120...

koraks said:

I agree that the system is likely to be unstable. It's inherently impossible to have a color developer be its own replenisher. I can see only two ways to make it 'work':
One is to in fact package a replenisher and then rely on a process of 'seasoning' over the first several rolls - which all will come out significantly (but decreasingly) out-of-bandwidth.
The second is to package a working strength developer which will yield on-spec results for first use, which then trend downward and out of spec as replenishment proceeds.
Neither will consistently yield on-spec results. The system fundamentally cannot work properly.

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So based on the above it seems the truth will out inevitably for Cinestill and out of spec will result. There then remains the question of who will notice it.

Will it effect optical enlarger and RA4 users enough to be a problem even for the less discerning amongst them? Home scanners who use the C41 kit or those who use a commercial lab for processing and scanning?

In Cinestill's defence we do not know what tests, if any, on which it has based its statement of its replenishment rate nor what evidence it obtained that makes it confident to state what it states

pentaxuser


pentaxuser

@pentaxuser none of those questions are answerable in a strict sense. My best guess is that 99% of the people won't notice, won't care or won't even land in a position to do either. I also guess that CineStill banks on this.

Fatih Ayoglu said:

Ok, for the best possible results (which I will develop for friends and possibly for some other people as well), the best option is to go to Fuji Minilab chemicals as one-shot, so I have this list;
Am I in the right landscape?

• NEG N1-S Developer Starter https://www.processuk.net/product/fuji-c41-developer-starter

• EnviroNeg Developer Replenisher LR AC 2 x 10-ltrs https://www.processuk.net/product/environeg-developer-replenisher-lr-ac-2-x-10-ltrs​

• EnviroNeg RA Bleach Replenisher AC 2 x 5-ltrs https://www.processuk.net/product/environeg-ra-bleach-replenisher-ac-2-x-5-ltrs​

• Negacolor RA Fixer & Replenisher 4x10-litre https://www.processuk.net/product/negacolor-ra-fixer---replenisher-4x10-litre​

• Stabilizer 100-litre https://www.processuk.net/Stabilizer__100-litre/p740597_3426918.aspx​

Am I in the right landscape?

Click to expand...

Absolutely, check to see if you need a starter for the bleach, the Flexicolor C-41 RA bleach requires a starter. I don't use stabilizer as I wash the films in running water (10 minutes). Stabilizer in a minilab uses 3 sequential counter-current tanks and a LOT of agitation. I use the Fuji or Kodak Final Rinse for C-41 or E6 which is like Photoflo that has a biocide to keep the to keep the wee beasties from eating the gelatin of your negatives.