Kodak CD-4 Bulk purchase

I hope it's OK to post this in this forum; if not perhaps the moderators can move this.

I want to stockpile some CD-4 developing agent. I have determined that the best way to do this might be to purchase a 22Kg drum from Kodak, then resell half of that and keep the rest. I am interested in soliciting interest among anyone who might want to purchase a pound or a Kg of CD-4. Pricing would likely be very beneficial. If this sounds interesting, please respond here (if permissible) or PM me.

How is the price to 1 kg ?
with regards

I am waiting for pricing from Kodak, but I am guessing I could sell 1kg around $100 plus shipping. I am not looking to make this into a business; just to be compensated fairly for taking the risk, doing to work to subdivide it, learning about the postal rules, etc. And to end up with a lifetime supply for me.

Please note that this compound didn't keep well, so there is not too much sense to get a large stack unless you got a really large consumption. And in small quantities it is wide available, for example, from artcraft:
http://www.artcraftchemicals.com/products/products-page/general-chemistry/a-m/cd-4-part-1095/

I second the statement that this developing agent does not keep well. In a bottle, it will keep about 5 years for best results. And that is a sealed bottle with a Nitrogen blanket on top.

PE

dE fENDER said:

Please note that this compound didn't keep well, so there is not too much sense to get a large stack unless you got a really large consumption. And in small quantities it is wide available, for example, from artcraft:
http://www.artcraftchemicals.com/products/products-page/general-chemistry/a-m/cd-4-part-1095/

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Well - thats indeed the problem with liquid chems in general.
Tetenal for example
don't give expired dates to their liquids.
There is allways a note : " Use within 2 years " onto the packaging.
Imagine some developers may stand to min. 1 year in the store / at your lokal dealer - so it should last more than 2 years before the chems are unusable.
I personaly give them a minimum of 3 -5 years. With great luck 6 or may be 7 years.
But it is relative 1) of cause only in original unopened bottles.
2) brand new avaible at your local dealer.

But now I am a little bit confused because I now CD 4 also as raw chemical
4 - (N- Ethyl-N-2-hydroxyethyl) - 2 methylphenylendiamine sulfate. ...
(terrible name) by the time "phenylendiamine" indicates you should use this chemical with respect because it may cause alergic reactions.
And more - we better will not talk about!
Perhaps I mixed some issues from bad remind - but CD4 (Cas 25646 - 77 - 9) is also avaible as crystalline powder (white - sometimes beige colored).
And in this form it may last longer - may be I mixed something (as I sayd).
As we should know it react with oxygen
(glad it has this reaktive potential )
So this white powder darkens upon exposure to air.
By the time - 1,4 - Phenylendiamine we better know as ppd, darkens so much in a simular reaction so we can't say ppd powder is white.
(after a relative short time it becomes a dark-brownish color)
So from my understanding this chemicals should be stored in a "nearly vacoum" plastic packaging.
But this should stable the cristals from chemical reactions ?
Obviously the structure of CD4 is more extensive than simple ppd - so as PE mentioned: " It does not keep well "
( and this in sealed bottles with a Nitrogen blanket in top) ...!...
But why is this so ?
I also remember a couple of years Tetenal c41 kits as "powder developer"
as I know these kits have been the last powder kits avaible at all.
And many stated :" they last for ever ".
Well - such statements to powder chems are nonsence.
But a full decade should be realistic like it is with many bw powder kits.
(ILFORD perceptol, Kodak D76 ...a.s.o)

Any ideas what the reason is I am wrong?
Obviously I made a mistake from understanding of inactive reactions of powder developers?

with regards

" inactive reactions " of powder developers D U R I N G storage I should add - of cause ....

with regards

trendland said:

...
Any ideas what the reason is I am wrong?
Obviously I made a mistake from understanding of inactive reactions of powder developers?

with regards

Click to expand...

1. Shelf life greatly depends on impurities and synthesis way. Old CD-1 produced in 1980-1990th has guaranteed life (by state standard) for 2 years, even in bad paper packets (and there was no problems after 3-4 years). Nowdays I bought fresh CD-1 and even in glass with ground joints it keeps no more than 3-5 month and become useless afterwards. I've got CD-32 developer produced in early 1980th. I keep it in glass with ground joint - it lightly pink-brown and works excellent.

2. In 1990th such developers were produced in granular form. It greatly increase it shelf life. I've got CD-4 in small granulas, produced in 1996, it keeps on bad plastic jar, but Its color it slightly brown - works excellent.

3. Developers that I bought year ago (CD-2, CD-3 and CD-4) from artcraft became almost black in about 6-9 months (I repackaged CD-4 into glass with ground joint, but seems it did not help). They work, but I have to use double quantity to get normal result quality.

dE fENDER said:

1. Shelf life greatly depends on impurities and synthesis way. Old CD-1 produced in 1980-1990th has guaranteed life (by state standard) for 2 years, even in bad paper packets (and there was no problems after 3-4 years). Nowdays I bought fresh CD-1 and even in glass with ground joints it keeps no more than 3-5 month and become useless afterwards. I've got CD-32 developer produced in early 1980th. I keep it in glass with ground joint - it lightly pink-brown and works excellent.

2. In 1990th such developers were produced in granular form. It greatly increase it shelf life. I've got CD-4 in small granulas, produced in 1996, it keeps on bad plastic jar, but Its color it slightly brown - works excellent.

3. Developers that I bought year ago (CD-2, CD-3 and CD-4) from artcraft became almost black in about 6-9 months (I repackaged CD-4 into glass with ground joint, but seems it did not help). They work, but I have to use double quantity to get normal result quality.

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Ok - my world is adjusted again so it is depending obviously from quality.
For example merk pharma listed it a couple of years ago as reagent (don't ask me to what analytic issue ? )
But it was much expensive from purity
of 99,99%...
So it is depending - if you have luck it will last to years and the stuff Kodak made at last should be in the midle of possible shell live. ..hmmm.

with regards

Has anyone tried freezing the dry chemical?

I am not entirely sure whether you want to put CD-4 or similar into the same freezer that you put your food in. The ice in there makes labels hard to read, rubber and plastic caps become brittle and may open inside, ...., there's a range of risks associated with this which makes this whole concept not overly appealing. Buying and operating a dedicated freezer is a lot more expensive than all the chems you may end up storing in there.

If you can't use the chems within a few years, then storage quickly becomes costlier than the additional cost from low volume purchases.

Rudeofus said:

Buying and operating a dedicated freezer is a lot more expensive than all the chems you may end up storing in there.

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I already have plenty of dedicated freezer space for film and paper. I think I have some CD-3 in there. I should check it. If oxidization is the main problem for CD4, I cannot imagine that that would happen very quickly frozen.

I bought 100 grams of it (in powder form) something like 20 years ago. I used some last year (2017) and it worked just fine for me. It has been in a plastic bottle since I received it from day one. I guess if you keep it in a glass bottle and cap it tight it will last very long. Mine was always kept in room temperature.

I freeze CD-3, CD-4, and glycin.

Rudeofus said:

I am not entirely sure whether you want to put CD-4 or similar into the same freezer that you put your food in. The ice in there makes labels hard to read, rubber and plastic caps become brittle and may open inside, ...., there's a range of risks associated with this which makes this whole concept not overly appealing. Buying and operating a dedicated freezer is a lot more expensive than all the chems you may end up storing in there.

If you can't use the chems within a few years, then storage quickly becomes costlier than the additional cost from low volume purchases.

Click to expand...

How do you know all this happens? Personal experience of disasters?
My beer and wine are easily recognizable in the garage fridge and I have been literate for a long time and can read labels and permanent marker inscriptions on containers.
The youngest 'child' that comes to visit is 20 yo and is at university. The OP doesn't state if the refrigerator is used for anything else.
The final bonus of freezing is hard to put a value on - it is convenience. Buying in small lots is probably dearer in the long run with postage costs the way they are.

Murray Kelly said:

How do you know all this happens? Personal experience of disasters?
My beer and wine are easily recognizable in the garage fridge and I have been literate for a long time and can read labels and permanent marker inscriptions on containers.
The youngest 'child' that comes to visit is 20 yo and is at university. The OP doesn't state if the refrigerator is used for anything else.
The final bonus of freezing is hard to put a value on - it is convenience. Buying in small lots is probably dearer in the long run with postage costs the way they are.

Click to expand...

Let's keep the fact straight:

1. My posting was about freezing, not about refrigeration. Puns about Australians aside, I strongly assume you do not keep your beer&wine in the freezer.
2. Yes, lids do open and labels do come off in my freezer. Since we cook at home on an almost daily basis, there is a lot more traffic to and from our freezer, so my situation may be atypical.
3. While 20+ year olds are unlikely to go "hmm CD-4 yummy!" in the kitchen (or elsewhere), there is always the risk of accidents: dropped bottles and breakage while digging through the items, other food items soiling my chems bottle, plastic lid of chem container unhappy with -17°C in freezer, ... I simply don't want to deal with a 100g CD-4 spill in my kitchen.
4. Sometimes these 20+ year olds pop out fresh little ones, sort of perpetuating the cycle, so this "all my relatives are 20+" theme may not hold in the long term. YMMV ...

The biggest problem with "I buy in large lots and save on product and shipping cost" is that this accumulates a lot of stuff which gets only partly used, if at all. BTDT.

At Kodak we had labels on refrigerators and freezers - "film only", "chemicals only" and "food only" for labs that had suitable cooling devices. Since emulsions took up huge spaces, they were walk in rooms larger than the average dining room in KRL. Bottles do drop, lids pop open or chemicals evaporate slowly. An example is Iodine which can appear solid but vanish from ANY bottle within a year or so and contaminate anything in reach of its fumes.

Segregate all materials properly. Use common sense.

Also, do not use utensils for lab work and for eating or cooking. I keep spoons and knives in my darkroom that are segregated from all other use.

PE

Photo Engineer said:

At Kodak we had labels on refrigerators and freezers - "film only", "chemicals only" and "food only" for labs that had suitable cooling devices.

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Hoping to lose weight, I have been storing my food in a refrigerator that contained a reducing agent.

Rudeofus said:

Let's keep the fact straight:

1. My posting was about freezing, not about refrigeration. Puns about Australians aside, I strongly assume you do not keep your beer&wine in the freezer.
2. Yes, lids do open and labels do come off in my freezer. Since we cook at home on an almost daily basis, there is a lot more traffic to and from our freezer, so my situation may be atypical.
3. While 20+ year olds are unlikely to go "hmm CD-4 yummy!" in the kitchen (or elsewhere), there is always the risk of accidents: dropped bottles and breakage while digging through the items, other food items soiling my chems bottle, plastic lid of chem container unhappy with -17°C in freezer, ... I simply don't want to deal with a 100g CD-4 spill in my kitchen.
4. Sometimes these 20+ year olds pop out fresh little ones, sort of perpetuating the cycle, so this "all my relatives are 20+" theme may not hold in the long term. YMMV ...

The biggest problem with "I buy in large lots and save on product and shipping cost" is that this accumulates a lot of stuff which gets only partly used, if at all. BTDT.

Click to expand...

OK - thanks for the explanation. The freezer is out but the fridge is OK. I am afraid I missed the pun about Oz. The garage fridge is an under over with the freezer below. I have been known to put a box of cigars in that to kill any weevils.
We don't go near that fridge even daily.
I shy away from glass, also, using PET when possible. An exception is some glass ampoules of FX-2 made up in 1961. Works fine.
I am 81 and doubt I'll still be using film or any photographic stuff as I have just been told I have macular degeneration like my father and G'mother. You need to see to enjoy the hobby. By the time any little ones go exploring I will be long gone with the chemicals. My mileage will vary.
My CD-4 has hardly seen the light of day after I discovered it was in fact phenidone and I went for a kit instead. Air tight PET bottles in the fridge.
So, you see, not everyone is the same - some of us are aware of your repeated warnings and keep an eye on the dangers of accidents.
I have handled worse things than CD-4 and made 81. Good health to you.

I have no freezer to put my food in. And I still can not imagine what this should be
(a freezer for food ???) - in addition I can't
afford it.
BECAUSE : My big freezer is full from film. And I realize now - I need a new one
(much bigger).

with regards

PS : Before drinking beer or buying food I need films. ...that's also good for health......

Beer? Food? Don't forget that other important food group - wine.