Kodak C-41 LORR developer + starter in hand tank?

[grainyvision]

Hi, so I have a sizeable surplus of bleach and fixer from a Fuji X-Press kit. I mix these two as needed, 1L at a time. I'm currently on the 3rd liter of a 5 liter kit, and the last liter I only disposed of when I saw some black spots on some negatives (potential remjet contamination from cinestill).

So, after running the numbers, it seems like the 5L LORR replenisher is the best bang for the buck without mixing crazy quantities of chemicals. I'll mix the entire batch of working solution all at one time though and decant into 1L accordion bottles. I plan on using the final working solution 1L at a time, one shot only. Even when doing this one shot only, it is competitive (until my bleach/fix runs out) with the smaller 1L C-41 powder kits, and an order of magnitude cheaper than having a roll done by a lab.

Two things confuse me: mixing and actual process.

For mixing, on the starter there is 2 different formulas (replenisher + starter + water) that make different amounts of final working solution. One is stamped with "LORR". That would be the one for me, correct?

For process, how do I properly use this stuff in a hand tank? Is it similar to Fuji's instructions? Those are 102F, 30s initial agitation (1x per second), 2x agitation (1x per second) every 15 seconds, total time 3:15, begin pouring out at 3:05. I know from some kodak docs I saw, the 102F number is definitely not fixed. It basically should be whatever temp is needed to keep the developer at 100.4F throughout the process. I don't have a thermometer that can measure quickly and accurately enough to figure that out though, so 102F is ok for me.

Also, is there any harm in kodak developer carry over into fuji bleach? My exact process will be: preheat (no rinse) -> developer -> bleach -> wash (3 minutes) -> fix -> wash (4 minutes) -> stabilize (1 minute). I also manually aerate the bleach afterwards by shaking the bottle, squeezing air out and then back in, shaking, etc.

Finally, what shelf life can I expect from this in accordion bottles? I know official Kodak says it can be 6 weeks, but I'm hoping some care can extend that. I used accordion bottles with the Fuji developer that said the same thing, and storing in the fridge to hopefully make it keep longer. I just recently had a developer problem (weird blueish green color casts) with my last liter from that kit. It was mixed in August and used yesterday (December) so clearly I stretched that 6 week figure a lot. I developed from a fresh bottle at about 14 weeks of age (November) with no problems though. Is LORR the right developer to buy if shelf life is a concern? Also, is LORR even designed to work in a hand tank?

 

[Photo Engineer]

Carryover can be a problem and that is why some processes suggest a 2% acetic acid stop after the developer.

Remember, developer can be used alone but replenisher requires starter for C41.

Use the recommended agitation, times and temperatures for your equipment.

PE

 

[mshchem]

As incredibly cheap as Flexicolor 5L developer replenisher is, 14 bucks, and a bottle of starter, 14 bucks. I wouldn't risk my precious films on using past recommended storage times. This is the developer replenisher
https://www.uniquephoto.com/product...1-832-0608-8231672/_/searchString/FLEXICOLOR

You dilute this with developer starter, and a little water, for a working (tank) developer solution .

STARTER
https://www.uniquephoto.com/product...-lorr-1-2l-6601074/_/searchString/FLEXICOLOR

I use the Kodak C-41 RA Bleach, Fixer, and final rinse . You need to control temperature and time if you want consistent results. Negative film has more wiggle room than slides.

Kodak used to make small hobby and 1 gallon kits for enthusiasts. Today all the Kodak chemistry is designed to be used in machines or deep tanks. It all works fine in a small tank or Jobo processor, you need to follow the directions. Kodak has several reference publications online.

 

[Richard Man]

I used to mix the 5L (which with the starter+water really generates about 6.5L+ of working solution) and put them into multiple smaller bottles. I just switched over to use a giant tank with floating lid from FreeStyle and it makes life even easier.

 

[grainyvision]

Carryover can be a problem and that is why some processes suggest a 2% acetic acid stop after the developer.

Remember, developer can be used alone but replenisher requires starter for C41.

Use the recommended agitation, times and temperatures for your equipment.

PE

None of the official Kodak docs I can find give agitation etc for a simple hand tank. It's all minilabs and rack systems.

I used to mix the 5L (which with the starter+water really generates about 6.5L+ of working solution) and put them into multiple smaller bottles. I just switched over to use a giant tank with floating lid from FreeStyle and it makes life even easier.

I was looking at one of those, but figured it'd hurt shelf life, and according to Kodak docs it does by 2 weeks. What's your experience been though?

 

[RPC]

None of the official Kodak docs I can find give agitation etc for a simple hand tank. It's all minilabs and rack systems.

 

[mnemosyne]

So, after running the numbers, it seems like the 5L LORR replenisher is the best bang for the buck without mixing crazy quantities of chemicals. I'll mix the entire batch of working solution all at one time though and decant into 1L accordion bottles.

If you want the devevloper to keep more than a couple of weeks, think of some different container, those accordion bottles suck. Almost anything else is better. Glass bottles of appropriate size or wine bladders would be ideal.

 

[Richard Man]

I was looking at one of those, but figured it'd hurt shelf life, and according to Kodak docs it does by 2 weeks. What's your experience been though?

So far so good, for about 4+ months now. I actually think the discoloration (from oxidation?) is less now that I close to the end, than when I was using separate smaller glass bottles.

 

[grainyvision]

Well, had a hand at mixing the chemicals last night. Plan was to mix replenisher and starter together into some 1L and 500ml rugged plastic bottles, that way I can always choose a good size for one-shot regardless of if I only need a half-tank and full-tank of chemicals... and I screwed up mixing. Instructions was (something like)

* 4L water
* Part A
* Part B
* Part C
* More water to up to 5L

So, I did that (used measurements on the bottles to figure out how much water to add to get up to 5L, since I'm not using a 5L graduate).. that worked fine.

However, making the final working solution is something like this:

* 763ml replenisher
* 30ml starter
* 207ml water

to make 1L of working solution. I screwed up in thinking that I'd make 5L of working solution with my 5L of replenisher. So I added 30*5 starter and 207*5 water and decanted it. Realized I screwed up after considering why I didn't get as much working solution as expected. I should have calculated it for ~6.55L of working solution. Spent 10 minutes figuring out how to fix my mistake, and ended up adding 9ml starter and 64ml of water to each 1L of wrongly mixed developer (and discarding 73ml of it). Thought maybe it'd work out, but tested it with some non-essential film today and there's some definite problems. Seems the solution is still over replenished/too strong, not to mention at this precision there will definitely be some error and variance. It gves a correctable, but annoying, green cast and significantly more grainy than should be expected (Pro 400H looks worse than Superia 800) and despite that, the results seem slightly under developed. Going to just pour it out and order another kit and double check everything when calculating this time around.

 

[Richard Man]

Starting with the 5L of LORR mixture, I add 200 ml of starter and 1400 ml of water (they are a few ml more than from the calculation but just rounding up slightly) and it has been working great for me for 3+ years now.

 

[doctorpepe]

I purchased a flexicolor ABC 20L kit and a box of starter (LORR is what they had on site). I want to make sure that I add the right amount of Starter, so I take it that to make a Liter of "ready to go" developer, I would take 763ml of the ABC mixed already, add 30ml of starter and dilute to 1000ml.

It is typically vague and unclear from the Kodak Alaris instructions if I should even be using starter (they recommend a certain proportion for ABC to make a Liter, but don't mention starter amounts).

Any further clarification would be wonderful before I start my processing.

Doctorpepe

 

[foc]

You need to mix up your replenisher first and maybe store it in 1L bottles. (I thought Kodak made them in 5 & 10L in the smaller sizes.)
Then from your mixed replenisher use your 763ml rep, 30ml starter and the top up to 1000ml. Now you are ready to go. (you will have 230ml of rep left over if you have poured from a 1L bottle)
LORR is just a low replenishment chemical.

 

[doctorpepe]

Thank you, foc. The 20L kit is kodak alaris Cat 3667805. Its a LOT of developer, and it may go bad before I use it all. I just have to get to shooting more film and working fewer post-retirement hours!!! I already have several cases of 1L bottles with phenolic poly caps that are O2 proof. The LORR starter was only available in 4 (four) 1.2 L bottles, so I should have a lifetime supply of that stuff, and I understand it does not really deteriorate over time.

 

[doctorpepe]

Thankfully, this thread is still active, so I have another interesting observation and seeking input. I was getting ready to mix up a "full" 20L, thinking that one simply mixed ALL of bottle A, B & C into a 5Gal pail (actually 5.283G = 20L). I did a last minute check (measure twice, cut once!) on the actual proportions of A,B & C required as listed in the Kodak C41 publication (CIS-49) and discovered the following:

(1) The original Kodak Alaris bottles contain A=1500ml, B=500ml and C=757ml.
(2) The proportions recommended on Page 2 of CIS-49 suggest that for mixing for a 1L solution, use A=75ml, B=12.5ml and C=11.73ml.
(3) If I interpolate these proportions up for 20L, I should be using all (1500ml) of A, but only 250ml of B (instead of the whole 500ml in the bottle) and only 235ml of C (instead of 757ml in the bottle)to make 20L.
(4) Oddly, this leaves a bit of excess Solution B (250ml) and excess of Solution C (522ml).

I wonder if anyone else has noticed this, or am I misinterpreting the Kodak instructions, or if I can purchase just one bottle of Flexicolor A to use up the remaining amounts of Parts B & C.

Thanx in advance.

 

[foc]

There is a video in another thread that may help.


He suggests the following for 1000ml final solution.
water: 500ml
part A 80ml
part B 40ml
part C 20ml
starter 30ml
top up with water to 1000ml

Does that help?

When making replenisher or a tank solution (rep & starter) in a commercial situation, you start off with an amount of water. then the full bottle of each bottle is used and the topped up with water to the required amount.

 

[mohmad khatab]

There is a video in another thread that may help.


He suggests the following for 1000ml final solution.
water: 500ml
part A 80ml
part B 40ml
part C 20ml
starter 30ml
top up with water to 1000ml

Does that help?

When making replenisher or a tank solution (rep & starter) in a commercial situation, you start off with an amount of water. then the full bottle of each bottle is used and the topped up with water to the required amount.

If you assume Package C is lost,
And also we assumed that I had the raw photographic chemistry elements (CD4) and the rest of the elements ,,
How can I prepare the C Bottle from scratch.