Kodak C-41 chemical Clarification: Need some help here please

[DanielStone]

hey all,

After sitting on my butt for the last 3hrs reading the past threads about acquiring Kodak C-41 chemicals, I'm still kinda not finding what I'm looking for. And my butt's been numb for about 2 hours so far. At least snoop doggy dogg is keeping me sane .

so...

I'm in need of some VERY CLEAR and STRAIGHTFORWARD answers here. I'm a kinda dumb, photographer dude, who just needs the basics, no whiz-bang stuff/technical jargon. Just being honest here folks and letting ya know before it gets all hot and heavy.

I'll be developing some film(and more to come in the next 2 months or so), mostly 120/220 and 4x5, along with some 8x10 sheets(so about 35 rolls total in sq inches). All in a Jobo CPP-2. I've been reading up that Kodak is no longer making the SM chem's in a "less $$$" variety, so there have been plenty of people using the starter/replenisher system. I'm kinda mystified to be honest. Beyond mystified...

So, as of right now, these are the chem's I've tracked down, and if there's anything that seems out of alignment, please let me know:

I'll be using developer and fixer single-shot bt to maintain more consistency from batch-2-batch. Bleach(Trebla b/c its just so damn cheap compared to Kodak, and the photo center where I'm processing the film already has it) and Final Rinse(Kodak) I'll be using 2x before discarding. F.R. will be in a separate container so I don't muck up my reels.

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Developer Starter:
Kodak Item #: 1953009
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Developer Replenisher:
Kodak Item #: 1534718
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Bleach :
I'll be using Trebla(as of right now)

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Fixer:
(does this require a "starter" like the developer, or just add water to make the amount you need?)
Kodak Item #: 1693837
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Final Rinse:
(just add water, right?)
Kodak Item #: 8673170
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MIXING of these chemicals: are the instructions on the bottle for these chemicals? I can't really do complex stuff like ph balance, hell, reading through my Nikon F4's manual made my head spin!!! Guess that's why I still shoot film !!!
as a side note:
I've been considering the Rollei Digibase(Fuji-Hunt chems re-packaged) kit from Freestyle(20 roll or 40 roll kit), but since I've been shooting Kodak c-41 film all my life, I'd like to continue using the chemicals it was designed to be souped in from the start. Just my take on it. Don't really mind the extra expense if it's the best quality(if there is any extra expense, hell, its cheaper than going back and re-taking the photographs, many which can never be made again).

many thanks!


-Dan

 

[polyglot]

Z-131 is the Kodak processing manual for C-41 and should contain all the instructions you can handle: mixing, processing steps, etc.

Edit: while (there was a url link here which no longer exists) is about availability in AU, it has a good summary (and links) from Athiril of exactly what you can get away with.

 

[brucemuir]

Daniel, you are good to go.
Those are the component chemicals I use for excellent results.
The fixer needs NO starter.(you can also use that fix for your b&w work)

As far as exact mixing instructions,
you need to figure them out from total volume and divide to what you are making for working solutions.
The issue is not all the containers have the total volume marked (the several developer components) so I had to measure them separately in a graduate and then interpolate the volume for mixing 1L working solution.

This is mostly an issue with the developer you listed.
The volumes are as follows:


Kodak Flexicolor Developer kit 192 7698
to make 1 litre
start with 700ml water
add
A) =76.3 ml
B)=13.2ml
C)=13.2 ml
add water to 1000ml

then add 14ml starter and mix

I round the amounts off as close as possible.
I'm also using this stuff replenished so I don't always need the starter.
Im not a math wiz either but these amounts have been somewhat verified by others here and I get good results.

I use a small inversion tank so replenishment works for me... don't know about JOBO.

Hit me up if you have any issues and I'll try to relay my experiences.

EDIT:
Opps, I'm using the 5gallon kit (you have the 10 litre listed in your link
Dead Link Removed

so disregard everything I just said

J/K the 5 gallon kit is way more economical. It's only 4-5 dollars more for almost twice as much. I never understood this.

Double EDIT
sorry for the confusion
corrected volume now listed

 

[DanielStone]

good morning gent's!

I see some more of you are the rise-early and check what's on the forum types as well .

Bruce,

yes, I'll agree, the 5g kit is the more economical one of the two. I'll go with that one when I order(I might be going through Calumet, since they're here in LA anyhow)

mixing: I mix 1L at a time. This allows me to process 8 sheets of 4x5, or 4-8x10 sheets(250ml of dev/sheet), or 4 rolls of 120/220 per liter. More than enough usage for me.

Much appreciated on the mixing volumes, I don't really want to replenish, but I can learn if it helps extend the chemistry further .

please keep the suggestions coming guys, if you have them, they're much appreciated

blessings!

-Dan

 

[Photo Engineer]

The Photographers Formulary may have some 1 L C41 kits available. They had some out for testing this summer. You may want to contact them.

As a side note, no bleach, blix, fix or final rinse requires a starter.

PE

 

[brucemuir]

Hold up, I revised those numbers because the first time I made a mistake.

there is equal volume of solution B&C so obviously they should match when interpolated down for 1L working solution.

 

[DanielStone]

Hey Bruce,

thanks very much for all the help! I'll get going on purchasing some chems right away to get started!

PE: thanks, but buying such small quantities isn't practical for me really. However, its nice that PF is re-packaging Kodak chems into smaller kits. If they could package a 1-gallon kit, I think it'd be a little more practical than just a measly 1L amount. But that's just my opinion.

-Dan

 

[Photo Engineer]

Daniel;

Make your suggestion to them. It would be more effective there than here I would think!

PE

 

[fotch]

I mentioned the larger sizes to them and they said there would be shipping problems. They mentioned that if the kits become popular, perhaps they could have a quantity break on larger orders.

So far, does not seem like anyone is tried the kits.

 

[Photo Engineer]

I have. They are fine!

PE

 

[Sirius Glass]

One liter amounts works well for Jobo processors.

Steve

 

[DanielStone]

okey dokey guys,

ANOTHER QUESTION:

I'm in need of bleach now too ! I'd love to get Kodak if the money ain't too much, but Trebla or Fuji is fine as well. Anyone got any tips for which one to get? preferably a 10L or 10g size.

thanks

-Dan

 

[2F/2F]

I'd think that Kodak would make all of this exceedingly clear. However, since the discontinuation of the one-gallon kit, the information on how to purchase and use their complete C-41 process at home in small quantities is difficult to locate, if not nonexistent. There are a million different variations of the chemistry, and no retailer seems to have them grouped in a sensible way either.

I suggest using the Rollei or Photographer's Formulary kits (if they are available yet), since Kodak no longer has a product designed for the average home user (like their old one gallon kit). When Kodak discontinued the one-gallon kit, I stocked up. I have about 10 gallons left to go through, and then I will switch to the Rollei and/or Formulary kits.

 

[fotch]

Greg, I hope you post your thoughts on this. I am not ready yet to try some, although I think this is a good alternative now a days.

 

[DanielStone]

anyone know of a 5L, 10L or 10gal sized bleach? It can be from anyone pretty much, just NOT BLIX, bleach only.

thanks!

-Dan

 

[EdSawyer]

Pakor.com sells bleach like you are asking for. They are about the cheapest supplier. The (hazmat) shipping is a bitch though.

 

[JSebrof]

You can sometimes find great deals on bleach on the auction site, I got my last gallon jug there for half the price I originally bought it for at Adorama.

 

[michaelbsc]

I've been looking at this too. Without trying to hijack the thread, can someone tell me if the bleach is the same as E6 bleach?

How about the final rinse for E6. PE has indicated in several places that the C41 final rinse is nothing more than PhotoFlo and Formalin. Will that work with E6, too?

The final rinse/stabilizer should also work for B&W. What will the B&W negative care if it's got a little formalin in it? Unnecessary, but not harmful in B&W.

And the fixer? Apparently the C41 fixer works fine as a B&W fixer. Will it also work as the final fixer for E6?

I guess I'm trying to wrap my head around just how much can be common.

MB

 

[hrst]

How about the final rinse for E6. PE has indicated in several places that the C41 final rinse is nothing more than PhotoFlo and Formalin. Will that work with E6, too?

The current final rinse is much more, because it's formalin-free, but the previous "stabilizer" is just photo flo and formalin, and it works also for current films, so it's easy. And it works with E6, too.

 

[Photo Engineer]

The Stabilzer for E6 an for C41 are both Photo Flo + Formalin. The Final Rinse for both are Photo Flo + Bacteriostat + Fungicide. The E6 and C41 Final Rinses are slightly different.

The C41 Bleach is different than the E6 Bleach. IDK how interchangable they are at the present time.

The E6 process still needs Formalin which is supplied in the "Pre-Bleach" solution.

Kodak and Fuji have the rights to both processes AFAIK, and their chemistries are interchangable.

PE

 

[michaelbsc]

Sharing chemicals between E6 and C41

The Stabilzer for E6 an for C41 are both Photo Flo + Formalin. The Final Rinse for both are Photo Flo + Bacteriostat + Fungicide. The E6 and C41 Final Rinses are slightly different.

The C41 Bleach is different than the E6 Bleach. IDK how interchangable they are at the present time.

The E6 process still needs Formalin which is supplied in the "Pre-Bleach" solution.

Kodak and Fuji have the rights to both processes AFAIK, and their chemistries are interchangable.

PE

OK, let me think out loud here, and bop me if I'm wrong.

I have a bunch of old color negative and color slide film in the freezer, some of which is from the 80s: much more than I'm willing to throw away even with the color balance issue it probably has by now.

This old C41 needs formalin, and all of the E6 needs formalin somewhere in the process.

Assume that I end up with a decent supply of modern chemicals for E6 and C41, and as I use them up on recent film learning what I'm doing I buy individual replacement chemicals rather than new kits.

Q1) When I run out of the final rinse in the kits, I can make an usable stabilizer out of PhotoFlo and formalin. And I can use that home-brewed stabilizer across my C41, E6, and B&W process as the final step without danger of wrecking any one of the processes. Correct?

{I realize that this will put the E6 in formalin twice, in the stabilizer step and in the pre-bleach step. Will that hurt?}

Q2) PE has already indicated that Flexicolor C41 Fixer is an acceptable fixer for B&W work, so I can dedicate my remaining supply of Rapid Fixer to B&W paper. Is the Flexicolor fixer interchangeable with the E6 fixer, so that I can use only one fixer chemistry across all three film processes? Would the E6 fixer be better as a single fixer chemistry? Or is this an unknown?


Q3) When I finally get comfortable with both E6 and C41, if I want to try interchanging the bleach I can do so, and it's an experiment for the user to see if the results are acceptable? Is this likely to damage either film? Or is it just likely to give less optimized results than using the native bleach would?

I really appreciate any help here.

Michael

 

[Photo Engineer]

Michael;

Film made for the C-41 process before about 2005 or thereabouts (there was no announcement by Fuji or Kodak about this AFAIK) require a Stabilizer, or the Magenta dye fades more rapidly. Film made after this date can use either Stabilzer or a Final Rinse. For E6 films only, Formalin is needed and must be present somewhere in the process. If double formalin is used I am virtually certain that nothing bad will happen.

C41 and E6 fixers are probably interchangable and C41 fixer (NOT RA FIXER) can be used for B&W at the proper dilution. That dilution factor is up to you.

Bad (or wrong) Bleach or Blix will cause the grain and color problems already described. Rebleachng, Fixing and washing followed by a final Stab/Rinse will fix this problem.

One final note to everyone!!!!!

The liquid kits are being constantly fiddled with as to volumes of the 3 parts for the developer (and the number of parts for the bleach for that matter), and so anyone posting dilution data for at least the Developers should be cautions as this may not work for everyone. Also, based on kit size, I have heard that the volumes of the parts vary. SO: BEWARE.

PE

 

[thelawoffives]

There has been mention of the Photographer's Formulary kit in this thread, and I am wondering if anybody can clear up a few things.

First, this is just a repackaging of Kodak chems, right? Is there a direct large-quantity equivalent for each of the chemicals that is in this kit, and if so, does anybody know what Kodak part numbers correspond to the parts of the kit?

Second, I read the tech sheet, but I am still a bit hazy on quantities. It says not to reuse the developer, so does that mean that I can only process 3 or 4 rolls in an inversion tank, or does this kit have 1 liter of concentrate?

Third, there does not seem to be any problems with shipping the Dead Link Removed from Adorama. Could I use the replenisher to replenish the PF kit, and keep buying the kit to get the other chems? Would this be foolish, price-wise?

Last, when I read this thread and others about C41, I get confused about which chemicals are hard to get from an online supplier. Could someone please clear this up for me?

As a side question, I think that these questions dove-tail well into this thread, but should I move this to the start of a new one? I will obey the will of the group. It might be useful to have a "Buying C41 Chemistry for Dummies" thread to go along with (there was a url link here which no longer exists).

-Bill

 

[michaelbsc]

I concur that a "C41 chemicals" thread would be useful.



My fear is that the marketplace seems to be in such a state of flux right now that someone would have to update it regularly. It could be a maintenance headache.

 

[Photo Engineer]

The Formulary kt is repackaged Kodak C41 and the process is done under Nitrogen to protect your chemicals. Once opened in air, they begin to age. The kit I have makes 1 Liter of developer. It can be replenished, but whether that is practial or not IDK. The total capacity of the developer is more than has been stated here, but you must adjust the times.

PE