Kodak bulk load - Ilford loader

Had a terrible time in the dark trying to get a roll of Kodak Hawkeye into an Ilford daylight bulk loader. There is no way it was going to allow the lid to fit. I had the curl right. Clockwise. Fall-back position to a Weston bulk loader.
Is there a difference somewhere in the hubs of the Kodak/Ilford bulk rolls?:confused:
Grrrrr!

Murray

OK - firstly let me say that in the cold light of day I ripped off the Ilford labels the original donor had put there to remind him what the film actually was and I now see 'Telesar Computerised Film Loader' - not made by Ilford at all.
The problem remains - does Kodak Hawkeye Surveillance film come on a special reel? It has 150' not the usual 100' of most films. Am I going to have to use the Weston always?
Can anyone with a Telesar advise, please?
Murray

I'm not at all familiar with that particular film. I know a lot of times when films come on longer rolls than "normal" for a given size, it's because they are on a really thin Estar base and they can simply fit more film in the same diameter roll.

Obviously you can't post pictures of the hub (!) but is it just a normal plastic hub with the square hole in the middle?

When I got some older Fuji Astia on a 100' roll I was surprised to find it was on a metal "daylight spool" of the kind used in movie cameras. Had a heck of a time getting that to work in my Lloyd's bulk loader. The edges of the spool were a tight fit against the inside diameter of the loader's chamber... and if I cinched the red lid on fully like I'd normally do, it pressed against the face of the spool and kept it from turning. I had to loosen it up a tad, without getting it so loose that light could get in. Your film in question isn't on a metal spool is it?

Duncan

frobozz, it is indeed a metal spool and you're right - I cannot remember if the hole is square or round. I do know the spool filts directly into a camera for speed detection cameras. However, why would it fit the one bulk loader and not the other?
Only time will tell. When I finish the roll.
Thanks for the feedback
Murray

Murray Kelly said:

OK - firstly let me say that in the cold light of day I ripped off the Ilford labels the original donor had put there to remind him what the film actually was and I now see 'Telesar Computerised Film Loader' - not made by Ilford at all.

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Just a word of warning: I've got one of these, and it scratches film. It's designed in such a way that the emulsion side rolls over at least one plastic surface, so any imperfection in that surface has the potential to scratch the film. I successfully loaded one roll of T-Max 100 using this loader with no obvious problems, but it's damaged Fomapan 200 and Agfa Ultra 100 films. Yours may be better, of course, since the scratches are no doubt due to imperfections or trapped particles in the film path, but you should be cautious.

srs5694 - Thanks, too. I believe you were in another thread on this some time back, when I googled the correct name of the loader.
I had a look inside mine and it 'feels' OK to the touch but perhaps I'd be better with some velvet or similar on the corner where the film hooks around into the channel?
The tip of frobozz not to over tighten the cover might be one reason he avoids scratches? Less tension on the film in its pathway perhaps. I want to put a roll of Adox 25 in there now, and it's pretty notorious for scratches. :-(
We'll see. Just so long as the thing accepts a roll on a reel. The Ilford film, incidentally had no reel at all - it was just rolled onto a 35mm length of 3/4" cardboard tube. Could be an important factor.
Thanks
Murray

You might try putting your Adox in, loading a short roll or two for test purposes, and if it's OK just keep using it. Repeat for each new roll in case a problem crops up.

Telesar bulk loader - not Ilford.

Checked the Telesar loader with a roll of EFKE and it does bind up. The 'ribs' on the cover and inside on the back clamp the reel and it is impossible to operate the thing. Obviously made for bare rolls.
I think I will operate with the Dremel judiciously and take a mm off the offending bits. Can't use it like it is so there's nothing to lose. They are there for strength but won't over strain it when I tighten it up. In fact may add a thin felt washer around the edge of the screw on lid to put any strain nearer the body of the box.
Murray

You want the film to be on an 'AA core' - 1" dia with a 0.32" square center hole. If the film is on a 'U core' - 2" dia with a 1" center hole - or on a spool with flanges then it won't fit a bulk loader.

Nicholas Lindan said:

You want the film to be on an 'AA core' - 1" dia with a 0.32" square center hole. If the film is on a 'U core' - 2" dia with a 1" center hole - or on a spool with flanges then it won't fit a bulk loader.

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Thanks Nicholas, but you're confusing me a bit, here.
The films I have here are all on 75-80mm (3") spools and they all fit the Western (?Weston?) loaders with the big tear-drop shape. The center holes do seem to vary a little. The Telesar loader is a square shape and in the corner is a chamber for the cassette you close up and push a separate crank handle into from the outside. There is a frame counter and a remaining feet calculator on two wheels on the back.
It came to me in a job lot from a darkroom and had FP4 film in it. When I looked inside there appeared to be what was the remainder of a 17m roll on a cardboard center piece 3/4" diam by 35mm wide, 1/2" hole, and no cheek pieces at all.
Checking that the center of the EFKE roll would fit (it does) the only problem is the lack of room for a film with the added depth of two cheek pieces on top of the 35mm film core. It's only a couple of mm. The mouldings that prevent closure are radiating ridges from the centre to the corners 2 to 3mm high, and they are higher on the inside of the box rather than the lid.
There looks like there's plenty of 'meat' in the mouldings so I plan to adapt it accordingly. Should I ever get a film off a reel it will still fit, only looser.
Murray

Nick, what I think you're trying to tell me is the Telesar won't take spools with flanges (cheek pieces) on which we agree, and so, when loaded, to keep the film from rattling around and getting scratched, the hub needs a 5/8 or 8mm hole in the middle.
The 17m roll, of course, never was big enough to touch the sides even with its 1/2" hole.
Easing the width constrictions to allow flanged rolls would mean the film never touched the sides anyway - the flanges would stop that.
Am I on the right track, now?
Thanks.
Murray

Follow-up. Telesar loader

I attended to the Telesar loader this evening with a small Dremel tool.
On the lid (and the back of the box) are radial ribs like spokes, for presumably strengthening reasons.
However closer inspection shows there are narrow ridges down the middle of each spoke on the ones on the lid. These narrow ridges are 2.5mm high. Remove them and leave the strengthening ridges and the bulk roll fits in with a slight rattle, indicating there is no especial drag on my Efke 25, and therefore no scratches.
The hub size is immaterial.The flanges sit on the sides of the box, not the film.
Problem solved.
If your Telesar loader is scratching the film check that the reel is loose enough to rattle when the box is shaken. It may need a little 'easing' off the lid ridges.
Murray

Has anyone tried to load a LegacyPro bulk roll in a daylight loader? I'm asking because I have a few of LegacyPro bulk rolls but they don't fit into my loader. My loader is the normal rectangular shaped. The problem seems to be that these Fuji bulk rolls have flanks on both sides. Usually there is just one flank. I wonder if my loader is just too narrow and if I should buy another loader?

I got a Fuji metal reel bulk roll to work in my Lloyd's loader by not quite cranking the red film chamber cap down all the way. Sure is a tight fit though!

Duncan

mablo said:

Has anyone tried to load a LegacyPro bulk roll in a daylight loader? I'm asking because I have a few of LegacyPro bulk rolls but they don't fit into my loader. My loader is the normal rectangular shaped. The problem seems to be that these Fuji bulk rolls have flanks on both sides. Usually there is just one flank. I wonder if my loader is just too narrow and if I should buy another loader?

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mablo, I'm not familiar with all that many loaders but it could easily be the same problem. The lid just won't quite fit properly.
Check and see if it the same as the Telesar - ie it has 2.5mm ridges on the radiating 'spokes' in the lid. If so then the reel will jam when you tighten the screw keeping it all together. I ground them off but with infinite patience you could rasp them down until the spoke is level all the way from hub to the edge.
The reel should rattle when you give it a shake so you know there is no friction on the reel and thus less chance of the film scratching.
I took care not to remove the 1" ridge on the circumference of the lid - it seems to be part of the feed path. The reel fits inside it OK.
The Telesar is square - it has a chamber on one corner for the cassette and when you close it tight you poke a crank in and wind the film up into the cassette from inside.
Loading it in the dark is a real pig. Take care to memorise the path the film follows, in the light.
Good luck
Murray

Thank You Murray!!! You are absolutely right! I had no idea there would be such ridges. Stupid stupid me. I'll find out a good method to remove them nicely. Thanks again.

mablo said:

Thank You Murray!!! You are absolutely right! I had no idea there would be such ridges. Stupid stupid me. I'll find out a good method to remove them nicely. Thanks again.

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mablo, don't be too hard on yourself!
I was all set to grind a little off the spokes on the lid and the box until I saw those ridges and realised why Nicholas was so sure flanged reels wouldn't fit. He is right - It is designed to accept only rolls of film without reels. Until I saw the FP4 inside I'd never seen film just bare like that.
I used a milling bit in the hand grinder. Take care to get all the shavings out afterwards - they could cause you more strife than you had before!
Murray

Loading the cassettes into the corner holder I found the hub of the cassette has to go in and down and then to the left before pushing the whole thing into place. Otherwise it doesn't sit properly to close the cover right up.
Just a pointer.
Murray