Kodak asks Judge to cancel retiree medical benefits

Pioneer · Oct 12, 2012

DREW WILEY said:
I some rural areas health is more affordable simply
because land is cheaper for clinics, cost of living for doctors themselves, etc.

I live in a pretty rural area, most would call it positively outback, but I wouldn't say that health care is any more affordable. However, access to primary care physicians is relatively straightforward, it is the specialists that are not available. My wife and I have to travel to Reno or to Salt Lake City for specialist care so the cost of travel and lodging is added to the cost of medical care. Different problems in different health care markets.

RattyMouse · Oct 12, 2012

brianmquinn said:
Finally a post from you that we can all agree on.
Now since you admit to being an amateur stop acting like you are smarter than everyone else on APUG.
Also please stick to the subject of analog photography.

1. Any indication that I am smarter than anyone else is 100% of your own invention.
2. My original post was regarding Kodak.
3. I did not cause this thread to drift onto the topic of healthcare.

Photo Engineer · Oct 12, 2012

Ratty!!!

I'm on your side.

PE

MattKing · Oct 13, 2012

This article seems quite informative: Dead Link Removed

RattyMouse · Oct 13, 2012

Photo Engineer said:
Ratty!!!

I'm on your side.

PE

Thanks PE! Appreciate it!

Sal Santamaura · Oct 13, 2012

RattyMouse said:
...I did not cause this thread to drift onto the topic of healthcare.

The topic of this thread is medical insurance. APUG is a worldwide forum. It would have been impossible for non-US members to obtain the slightest understanding of the thread's topic without some discussion of how our medical care so-called "system" operates and is funded in the US.

RattyMouse · Oct 13, 2012

Sal Santamaura said:
The topic of this thread is medical insurance. APUG is a worldwide forum. It would have been impossible for non-US members to obtain the slightest understanding of the thread's topic without some discussion of how our medical care so-called "system" operates and is funded in the US.

I have no problems with where this thread is drifting. I merely refuted the accusation directed at me by brianmquinn, that it was me who started the talk about US health care beyond the Kodak story. The thread when that way, as you suggest, naturally without my direct input.

Sal Santamaura · Oct 13, 2012

RattyMouse said:
...The thread when that way, as you suggest, naturally without my direct input.

Yes, I should have been clearer, the thread did not actually "drift."

Sirius Glass · Oct 13, 2012

This is a tough blow to the people who did the real work at Kodak.

brianmquinn · Oct 13, 2012

RattyMouse said:
1. Any indication that I am smarter than anyone else is 100% of your own invention.

I never thought you were smart, just arrogant.

brianmquinn · Oct 13, 2012

Sirius Glass said:
This is a tough blow to the people who did the real work at Kodak.

This it the type of comment I like to see. It is on subject and shows concern and understanding. Not of the whole healthcare debate but the situation of the individuals that were Kodak workers.

The fact is Kodak is bankrupt and therefore UNABLE to pay the bills that it owes. Stupidity may have pushed them into this corner but the fact is that is where they are.

Photo Engineer · Oct 13, 2012

I think that the comment above regarding explaining our health care system to those outside the US are apropos and that Ratty Mouse has not overstepped the bounds of civility nor the bounds of responses for this thread.

Since I am a Kodak retiree and take a great interest in this thread, let he who is also an EK retiree feel free to throw stones. Otherwise, please be silent or civil.

PE

brianmquinn · Oct 13, 2012

Photo Engineer said:
I think that the comment above regarding explaining our health care system to those outside the US are apropos and that Ratty Mouse has not overstepped the bounds of civility nor the bounds of responses for this thread.

Since I am a Kodak retiree and take a great interest in this thread, let he who is also an EK retiree feel free to throw stones. Otherwise, please be silent or civil.

PE

OK, I will.
I have great respect for you and all of the analog photography information you provide. This has become a political thread and heats up passions.

Pioneer · Oct 13, 2012

I suspect that others in this forum have an interest in the results as well since the response to Kodak's petition not only has a direct affect on that company's own retirees but could also be used to justify similar actions by other companies watching from the sidelines. This type of action does not happen in a vacuum, particularly in today's economic environment. If past promises can legally be put aside by Kodak then this may only be the breach in the dike that others have been looking for.

I think that the discussions related to the current state of health care in the US, as well as the expense of insuring that care, have a direct relation to this overall discussion. It may turn out that some of these good people may find themselves unexpectedly swimming in that puddle.

Photo Engineer · Oct 13, 2012

Nothing personal was meant. This was a general comment on the trend of this tread by several and also in the face of previous attacks by some at me and my work.

I was merely intending to stand with Ratty Mouse in the face of some harsh criticism which was not really deserved, IMHO.

I wish you all well. Peace.

PE

AgX · Oct 13, 2012

Someone out of the industry recently stated that it is social security legislation that makes it difficult for a manufacturer to adapt to a shrinking market. And thus insolvency would be the result, to the benefit of the owner who thus get's off his employees.
But the situation the photochemical industry has to face has not come overnight. And one (the owner/the management) could have prepared for this. Except of course one clings to the last-one-standing concept solely and would then be unprepared if it is oneself that cannot stand any longer.

Diapositivo · Oct 14, 2012

Regarding the funding of health care plans by Kodak I think there is a half-glass situation here. Kodak is in any case not going to provide all the "promised" funds and as far as I can gather did not have a strict juridical obligation either. Agreeing to settle for half the amount leaves half glass on the table but secures the other half glass which would otherwise be quite at risk. Other classes of creditors will end up probably being treated worse.

Overall the half-glass compromise seems to me fairly advantageous for Kodak retirees / employees and I wouldn't consider it a bad news. I am actually surprised that an engagement which was, as said, not legally binding can make a dent on the rights of the other creditors.

Photo Engineer · Oct 14, 2012

There is no "half glass" with health care. Kodak is going to cut it if that is approved. So, there will be nothing there!

PE

Diapositivo · Oct 14, 2012

Photo Engineer said:
There is no "half glass" with health care. Kodak is going to cut it if that is approved. So, there will be nothing there!

PE

I was referring to this text - I don't know if I got it right - in the originally quoted post:

The company said it reached an agreement with the court-appointed committee of retirees to pay a total of $650 million in claims and $7.5 million in cash into a fund that could be used for future payments in exchange for eliminating its current $1.2 billion liability for medical, dental, life insurance and survivor income benefits.

If the company is exposed for $1.2 billions and it pays $657.5 millions it should be around half of the total liability that the company is going to honour.

Maybe that only covers health care performances that have already been provided? I don't understand the use of "claims" here but it could be that the article was imprecisely worded. I infer this from the fact that the "liabilities" amount to $1.2 and I suppose that "liabilities" are exactly the total amount of the "promise" at today value. In that case, half of that would be paid or this is what I understand so far.

PS I see now that MattKing in post #6 reasons the same way. It's about half the promise which is being paid, and considering it's a dire situation at Kodak, half might be a bargain.

Photo Engineer · Oct 14, 2012

Well, at this point in time, we have no idea what this means to us as retirees.

Some of this is inexplicable to us because there are exceptions due to age, tenure and etc.

PE

Pioneer · Oct 14, 2012

I don't think it is anywhere near as good as it sounds.

I could certainly be wrong but it seems by the way the article is worded that Kodak is proposing to pay 650+ million in claims that have already been made against those liabilities, but temporarily suspended because of the bankruptcy, and then put another 7.5 million in a bank account. If the text is correct then it appears to me that the extra 7.5 million will be good to cover about 3 weeks of expenses since Kodak estimates the cost to be about 10 million per month.

All they are trying to do is get out from under these liabilities. Like I said, I could be reading it wrong, but I don't think so.

RattyMouse · Oct 16, 2012

Well that was quick. I guess the judge approved. Health benefits to end in 2 months for retirees.

http://news.yahoo.com/kodak-end-hea...0--finance.html;_ylt=A2KJjaj4.XxQpDsABFjQtDMD

bobwysiwyg · Oct 16, 2012

"this action will pose challenges for retirees."

Gee, ya think?

BrianShaw · Oct 16, 2012

... a very scary precedent for more than just the Kodak retirees who have just been screwed.

kb3lms · Oct 16, 2012

... a very scary precedent for more than just the Kodak retirees who have just been screwed.

Yes, it is. As a legal precedent this is going to allow other companies to do the same thing and bail out of their health care costs by declaring bankruptcy. Then, it's a small step to make that move to keep out of bankruptcy and then one more small step to not offer it at all. While I am vary glad for the health care coverage that my current employer provides, I also know very well that they would ditch that expense in a heartbeat if they think they could get away with it. And given the grossly inflated costs of health care I can hardly blame them.

Kodak has sometimes been the leader in business practices and not always for the better. Outsourcing of IT was one of those. IIRC they were the first. It was about a 10 or 12 year step till everyone did it and most of it had moved offshore to someplace like India.

We are seeing another door being opened here.

Kodak asks Judge to cancel retiree medical benefits

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