Kodak and the present growth or decline of the cine film business

dcy · 2025-07-28T18:48:47-0400

{Moderator note: this thread was split off of another one that dealt with a related, but distinct topic: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/shot-lucky-c200-new-color-film.214984/ }

Spektrum said:
Just think about it: Kodak will remain in the market as long as there's demand for film for movie production. This demand isn't decreasing. It's constantly growing.

Is this true? The market for movie film is growing? Not being replaced by digital?

MattKing · 2025-07-28T19:10:21-0400

A lot of the film produced for the movie industry is used for the intermediate steps in the editing process.
The "Product" list on the Motion Picture Film part of the Eastman Kodak website:

The link is here: https://www.kodak.com/en/motion/home/

koraks · 2025-07-29T02:12:26-0400

dcy said:
Is this true? The market for movie film is growing? Not being replaced by digital?

For now I think demand has bottomed out a few years ago and demand is on the rise. IDK how substantial that rise is.

One of the key factors for Kodak staying in business is not so much demand on photographic film, but how successful they are in continuing to exploit their technology portfolio with products aimed at entirely different markets than those related to photography.

halfaman · 2025-07-29T05:35:35-0400

dcy said:
Is this true? The market for movie film is growing? Not being replaced by digital?

The "digital replacement" happened in Hollywood a decade ago, more or less. Similar than with still photograhpy, it seems that there is a growing interest in the past years on shooting movies with film.

dcy · 2025-07-29T06:55:39-0400

halfaman said:
The "digital replacement" happened in Hollywood a decade ago, more or less. Similar than with still photograhpy, it seems that there is a growing interest in the past years on shooting movies with film.

Do you have any evidence (even if it's just circumstantial) that there is *growing* interest?

I know that film continues to be a big part of the movie industry. Tarantino is a strong advocate for film. But my understanding was that film still on the decline; it's just a slow decline now. I tried to find information online, but all I could find was this page with a plot that ends in 2018, but that doesn't tell us what's happened in the last 7 years. Perhaps it's been a slow decline, perhaps it stabilized, and perhaps it bounced and recovered.

brbo · 2025-07-29T07:59:58-0400

The entire cine film business is about half or less (and falling) the size of Eastman Kodak's still film business. I guess the falling share of EK cine film business is mainly because the (faster) growth in still film.

koraks · 2025-07-29T08:07:22-0400

brbo said:
The entire cine film business is about half or less (and falling) the size of Eastman Kodak's still film business.

It's much less, indeed. >70% of EK's revenues is associated with print(as in industrial inkjet, flexo etc., not photographic or cinematographic prints). Of the remainder, only a part is photography-related, with other applications being e.g. battery technology, wireless tech, semicon etc. So present-day Eastman Kodak is really only to a very limited extent a photographic company. It's a bit like Fuji, but Eastman Kodak was evidently much later and much less successful in their diversification.

The print business isn't going so well at the moment for Kodak, in part because they're still apparently invested in flexography, which is on its way out (e.g. Fuji shut down an entire production line here in the neighborhood in that segment only a few years ago). In the inkjet domain, they're a small player, even in the American market, let alone elsewhere. Whatever concerns or hopes there are w.r.t. the cine film business, it's all dwarfed by much bigger strategic issues.

Spektrum · 2025-07-29T08:12:52-0400

dcy said:
Do you have any evidence (even if it's just circumstantial) that there is *growing* interest?

For this topic, I created a website with information on the number of movies using analog film produced between 2019 and 2024. I used Gemini 2.5 Pro Deep Research.

There was a link to an AI-generated page containing incorrect data. I've removed it. I apologize for the misinformation.

Alex Benjamin · 2025-07-29T08:25:54-0400

dcy said:
But my understanding was that film still on the decline; it's just a slow decline now.

One can wonder if what's important for the company itself isn't how much a product is used but rather how much money it's making, or losing, from manufacturing it.

Not to forget how much are people willing to pay for it, and how does the profit margin (or loss) fits in your entire portfolio.

brbo · 2025-07-29T09:50:04-0400

koraks said:
It's much less, indeed. >70% of EK's revenues is associated with print(as in industrial inkjet, flexo etc., not photographic or cinematographic prints).

This is correct, but I wanted to point out that cine film is now less than half of still film business for EK. Some people still live in a world where still film is produced in miles and cine film in thousands of miles. Not true.

Alan Edward Klein · 2025-07-29T10:20:03-0400

Interesting recent Forbes article about Kodak.

Kodak’s Next Moment: How CEO Jim Continenza Is Reinventing The Brand

Today’s edition of Forbes CEO is all about Kodak: From its history as the brand synonymous with photography, to its bankruptcy in the digital era, and what’s next.

www.forbes.com

Spektrum · 2025-07-29T12:11:31-0400

A very interesting article. I'm curious about just one thing: the article is from July 2025 and mentions Kodak's attempt to enter the pharmaceutical market. I remember reading the following article in July 2020, during the pandemic:

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/07/28/896209016/trump-gives-medical-stockpile-a-kodak-moment-with-new-loan-to-make-drugs

According to this article, they allegedly received a large loan from the US government, which caused their stock prices to skyrocket in a short period of time.

I hope this is still not about politics, but rather we are simply considering the historical facts related to Kodak's profitability.

dkirby · 2025-07-29T14:18:44-0400

Spektrum said:
For this topic, I created a website with information on the number of movies using analog film produced between 2019 and 2024. I used Gemini 2.5 Pro Deep Research.

The Analog Renaissance: A 2019-2024 Film Analysis

I assume that the data availability is quite good, besides, I used AI Deep Research in the "pro" version, so I would not expect any falsehood called AI hallucinations.

Unfortunately I have identified many errors and omissions committed by AI here - for example, it charts 17 productions from 2024 that shot on film including Dune Part 2 which shot digitally and was distributed on film. (I was slightly confused because although it charts 17 on the bar graph it only lists 16, including Dune 2, by name).

This article: https://www.kodak.com/en/company/press-release/cannes-2024/ lists 20 feature film productions shot on Kodak film that played at Cannes 2024 alone - meaning the number of films released worldwide in 2024 that shot on celluloid is a much higher number than the 15 or 16 that AI has identified on your page (subtracting Dune 2 as it did not shoot on film).

Additionally, and changing to 2023 in this case, your website lists Poor Things as being shot "Hybrid: 35mm Ektachrome and digital", which is inaccurate. Poor things did not use digital capture, although it did use a mixture of Ektachrome, Double-X, and Vision 3 CN films. Sources: https://www.kodak.com/en/motion/blog-post/poor-things/ and https://www.imdb.com/title/tt14230458/technical/?ref_=tt_spec_sm. Its director, Yorgos Lanthimos, "never shoots digital" (source: https://nofilmschool.com/poor-things-cinematography). An interesting note: Poor Things is one of the few instances of a movie shooting Ekachrome and processing it E-6 (most movies/TV shows that use Ektachrome cross-process).

Some quick omissions that I noticed from various years: Occupied City, Something You Said Last Night, Winter Boy, The End We Start From, Sick of Myself.

Although I did not have time for a comprehensive check of AI's list, given these errors I do not think we can trust it to answer our question. I assume that there are more errors and omissions than I noticed.

An interesting note about Dune Part 2 which I mentioned previously - although they shot it on digital cameras, they then "wrote" the film to a celluloid intermediate before re-scanning it back to digital for its release in order to give the movie a film aesthetic while "maintaining the benefits of digital cameras in production." The film was also released in some film prints as your AI site mentions. Source: https://nofilmschool.com/Dune-Digital-Film-Process. You can also find more info about it elsewhere.

Spektrum · 2025-07-29T14:49:20-0400

Thank you for all this information. I admire your insight and knowledge.
I can't change the data on this AI page; I don't have the necessary skills.
However, I wouldn't delete the link, even though much of the data is incorrect. I see this as evidence that movies are still shot on film and there's interest from film producers. Considering that a single movie uses kilometers of film, this means Kodak still has demand for its products.

Kodak has a contract with Kodak Alaris to produce photographic films until 2028. They promise to continue production if there's demand.
Personally, I'm not worried about Kodak films disappearing from store shelves after 2028. I've been observing the Polish market for several years and see that Kodak films sell out quickly from online stores, especially the basic stocks of Kodak Gold and Kodak Colorplus. The trend is significantly upward, especially in 2025. In April, there was a price increase of around 15%, yet sales haven't declined. And now, in the summer, it's pure madness.

dcy · 2025-07-29T15:24:29-0400

Spektrum said:
A very interesting article. I'm curious about just one thing: the article is from July 2025 and mentions Kodak's attempt to enter the pharmaceutical market. I remember reading the following article in July 2020, during the pandemic:

The article is not from 2025. It was *updated* in 2025. Reading the article, it definitely reads like it was written *much* closer to Kodak's bankruptcy, when Jim Continenza was relatively new in the role. In it, Continenza says he's visited the factory 100 times, which is "more times than my office". So let's say that the article is written around 6 months after Continenza's hiring, which was in Feb 2019. That would put the article in mid to late 2019, just before the move to pharmaceuticals the next year.

dcy · 2025-07-29T15:26:28-0400

dkirby said:
Although I did not have time for a comprehensive check of AI's list, given these errors I do not think we can trust it to answer our question. I assume that there are more errors and omissions than I noticed.

Yeah. I would never trust a hallucinating AI with this.

dcy · 2025-07-29T15:29:27-0400

Spektrum said:
I can't change the data on this AI page; I don't have the necessary skills.

You can't edit HTML?

Spektrum said:
However, I wouldn't delete the link, even though much of the data is incorrect. I see this as evidence that movies are still shot on film and there's interest from film producers.

That statement doesn't make sense. If this page is a hallucination from an AI, as clearly it is, it is not evidence of anything. Spreading bad information is wrong. If I was in your position, I'd take it down until I could replace it with something based on at lest somewhat reliable sources.

Spektrum · 2025-07-29T15:34:12-0400

OK, so I'll do it.

DREW WILEY · 2025-07-29T15:36:05-0400

Let's not forget the Wild West of alternative film making, which seems to be tempting quite a bit of "retro" b&w creativity, along with a lot of documentary work testing the film festival waters. It's not all about big budget teenage blockbuster fare.

For a fascinating example, view Bob Dylan's Shadow Kingdom - deliberately retro, as if filmed contemporaneously in some old Prohibition era speakeasy. Projects like that don't just punctuate the subject - they set cool trends. Next thing you know, Dick Tracy hats will be back in style. No, the use of cine film will never again have its heyday of demand; but at least it's being realistically kept alive.

Alan Edward Klein · 2025-07-29T22:02:39-0400

Spektrum said:
Thank you for all this information. I admire your insight and knowledge.
I can't change the data on this AI page; I don't have the necessary skills.
However, I wouldn't delete the link, even though much of the data is incorrect. I see this as evidence that movies are still shot on film and there's interest from film producers. Considering that a single movie uses kilometers of film, this means Kodak still has demand for its products.

Kodak has a contract with Kodak Alaris to produce photographic films until 2028. They promise to continue production if there's demand.
Personally, I'm not worried about Kodak films disappearing from store shelves after 2028. I've been observing the Polish market for several years and see that Kodak films sell out quickly from online stores, especially the basic stocks of Kodak Gold and Kodak Colorplus. The trend is significantly upward, especially in 2025. In April, there was a price increase of around 15%, yet sales haven't declined. And now, in the summer, it's pure madness.

Where did you get this information?

Kodak and the present growth or decline of the cine film business

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