Kodak Alaris responses and dispatches

Dear Kodak-Alaris, Ilford and Fuji,

I have been on the road in my small pickup camper with my wife, cat, a couple hundred rolls of 120 film and a gaggle of Hasselblads for the past month. I had a great ski season in terms of income for my ad clients and decided to take 6 weeks off to work on new bodies of work.

I remember the days early in my career when money was tight and my vision lacked a place to creatively call home, that was in the late 80's and early 90's. Quite often those days are referred to on here as the "Good Ol' Days". I beg to differ, I think these days are the good ol' days!

I am just giddy that I can order up the incredible film choices I can from Kodak, Fuji and Ilford for as cheap as I can in freaking 2014!!! I mean, WOW, what a treat!

I don't need even a fraction of the films offered to make emotion filled and engaging not to mention outright saleable photos as are offered now, but I relish in it and will even if that changes. I am cranking out such good work right now that I am going to cancel a couple of small commercial shoots and extend my trip for another few weeks.

I just want to thank Kodak, Fuji and Ilford from the bottom of my heart for doing the very best they can to keep in the film game. I want to especially thank Kodak for getting back to me with a reasonable reply to my question a couple months ago, I understand how businesses work and appreciate the effort in these still unsettled times.

What a great, GREAT time to be a photographer, I could not imagine a better way to live! Kodak, Fuji and Ilford, you all ROCK so a big thank you!

KPP is more than just retirees. It is also a fair chunk of people who are still working - still depending on their existing jobs, in existing Kodak Alaris (until recently Kodak Limited) production lines, as well as marketing divisions, technical support divisions, shipping departments etc., etc. that were formerly either part of the former Kodak Limited or part of other departments or divisions in various other Kodak entities around the world.

Most of those people had previously some involvement with still film, but as that market had shrunk so much in recent years, certainly not the majority of them.

It is those jobs, in healthier if not expanding markets, that Kodak Alaris is most invested in. And it is only in those markets that Kodak Alaris has an opportunity to control its own destiny - unless it can somehow obtain control of a supply of still film.

The existing and current Kodak Alaris employees have a huge stake in the health of their new company, because a lot of them have a huge stake in the health of their pension plan.

Wouldn't you concentrate more in those parts of your production and market that you have a chance to influence?
Kodak Alaris' interest in still films in the long term will only be publically obvious if and when they can be reasonably confident of long term supply. And then, only if it makes sense to ensure long term supply.

Eastman Kodak is out of bankruptcy and there still is a "Kodak" in the, photographic paper, still film and photo-chemicals businesses. That is good news.

There continue to be serious distribution problems, but I would be surprised if they had all been fixed in the short time that Kodak Alaris has been in existence. At least in some cases, I can find new product on the shelves, so there is hope.

In the meantime, I'll buy what I can, use and enjoy it, encourage Kodak Alaris to do more, and see how things stand a couple of years from now.

PKM-25 said:

I have been on the road in my small pickup camper with my wife, cat, a couple hundred rolls of 120 film...

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Dan! Good to see you back...

:w00t:

Not two days ago I thought about sending you an email, just to see how things were going. What a coincidence.

Ken

pentaxuser said:

APUG existed before the demise of Ilford. Does anyone know if Ilford contributed then as Harman in the form of Simon Galley does now?

I suspect that Ilford didn't in those far-off pre 2005 days. The Harman phoenix-like rise from the ashes of Ilford as a management buy-out was a real risk for that management and Harman may have needed all the friends it could get and if it were to survive and prosper it needed all the friends it could get in the very big market of the U.S.

In those conditions it made sense to cultivate a relationship with APUG. In terms of the time devoted to APUG versus the returns Harman gets it may be worthwhile and while I think that Harman enjoys its relationship with APUG then even if the returns aren't big there is the "riding the tiger" factor.

Not having a presence here after this length of time would be risky. Sounds comical but leaving devoted Harman fans on APUG now carries the "bunny boiler" risk.

I do wonder how much the future of film in global terms depends on companies building relationships with forums. We are big but how much is added to Harman's global sales of film, paper etc based Simon Galley's presence here on APUG?

pentaxuser

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google Lancelot Vining for prior engagement with customers

marketing has a big budget Wall Street is not poor.

Sponsoring APUG is cheap for any supplier or someone who wants to sell eg a camera.

A bigger hit for Ilford is our largest Pharmacy chain still has HP5+ on medium and large outlets but no Trix! If I run out on Sunday I can't get Trix if I wanted. But I've never bought Trix cept when it was only option (ie 220).

I spend money buying Kodak ink jet cartridges cause the home office printer is a Kodak. But very little is for photo prints... I do buy 5222 again it is that or Orwo cine.

Kodak want the big money spinners they are greedy they always have been.

Where to begin... I hope to keep this a passionless post although I am passionate about film photography. Don' t really care for the term 'analogue' photography to distinguish ourselves from digital imaging, which I use as a convenience for record keeping but not as a hobby. Film photography was here first and I don't see why we should rename ourselves for the convenience of the d*g*t*l world. OK </rant>

Kodak Alaris' raison détre is to fund the Kodak UK Pension Plan members, presumably both present and past employees. It is responsible to the board overseeing the penson plan and presumably nobody else.
From the sound of it, the pension plan is not fully-funded in that pension / superannuation contributions are not collected as the wages and salaries for employees are paid. The on-going pension payments are made out of operating profits each year. This contrasts with the situation in Australia where, except for some government employees, a portion of my salay, (currently 9%), is paid into a superannuation fund and invested for my retirement. In KA's situation I believe it would be fair to say that the bulk of the pension obligations are to retired, former employees rather than the currently downsized workforce. Thus KA's pension obligations will diminish quite rapidly over the next 10 years. I dont see KA as being a long term play in any shape or form. They just need sufficient revenue in the 10-15 year mid-term to pay pensions. After that point they will have no reason to exist and can pack up shop.

Now to the issue of film production. As MartinP noted in an earlier post, coating operations for still film will not be viable at Rochester when the production contracts for cine film expire. Do we have any idea how frequently EK schedules coating events for BW or colour print films? Post cine film coating, EK are not going to mothball the coating plant for 9 months of each year between coating runs. If we, (APUG membership), were a bit more on the ball we should have collectively constructed a database of batch codes and expiry dates from our film purchases. We could then possibly determine how frequently film was being coated. I think that the results may appear quite dismal.

So, getting back to the EK / KA relationship, as is previously noted by MartinP, and I fully agree, KA will stock up big time on film just prior to the cessation of coating and rely on this income to support their diminishing financial obligations to their pensioners. The longer that they can leave these MASS coating events the longer they can store and release the product to the market. Stretch it out baby!! Remember how long Agfa APX100 was available after AGFA ceased production.

The recent retail price increases on Kodak BW products is a harbinger of things to come. KA has to make hay while the sun shines as I personally believe they are on a fixed schedule for product supply.
If I were cynical I would say that we may have already seen the last coating events for some BW products and the retail market is currently being fed by stock in cold storage. I'm sure, however, that there will be very big coating runs prior to decomissioning of the Rochester plant and that will supply the market for another 5+ years.

I'm not at all depressed at this. I regularly use Kodak and Ilford films and I recently bought some Fomapan to try out. I am also in the process of buying a Mamiya RZ67 from APUG member kaiserkudo. Can''t wait to get my hands on it!!

StoneNYC said:

I couldn't disagree more.

Word of mouth is still the classic "social media"

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?????

I said:

It is rather a means of using those few as those spreading the news.

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So you should agree.
(Or did you intend a double-negative ["could not disagree more"]?)

AgX said:

?????

I said:


So you should agree.
(Or did you intend a double-negative ["could not disagree more"]?)

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It appears as if I miss read, or misunderstood what you were trying to say, my deepest apologies, and yes I think we agree.

tokam said:

In KA's situation I believe it would be fair to say that the bulk of the pension obligations are to retired, former employees rather than the currently downsized workforce. Thus KA's pension obligations will diminish quite rapidly over the next 10 years. I dont see KA as being a long term play in any shape or form. They just need sufficient revenue in the 10-15 year mid-term to pay pensions. After that point they will have no reason to exist and can pack up shop.

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That is a good point. Eastman Kodak's main competitors Agfa and Fuji still (well...) got all technologies and people in house. On that they rearranged over the recent years the gravity of their efforts.
KA though just got what they got. And are more limited in their choices.

tokam said:

The longer that they can leave these MASS coating events the longer they can store and release the product to the market. Stretch it out baby!! Remember how long Agfa APX100 was available after AGFA ceased production.
...
If I were cynical I would say that we may have already seen the last coating events for some BW products and the retail market is currently being fed by stock in cold storage. I'm sure, however, that there will be very big coating runs prior to decomissioning of the Rochester plant and that will supply the market for another 5+ years.

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So we got plusx for five years?
EK would need a lotta $ for the silver, Id instead suggest the residual management will be getting drunk on the $ ? - hic.
Donno .
Noel

Xmas said:

So we got plusx for five years?
EK would need a lotta $ for the silver, Id instead suggest the residual management will be getting drunk on the $ ? - hic.
Donno .
Noel

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With regards to non t-grain films I'm an FP4 / Tri-X man myself. Plus-X and HP4 didn't do it for me.

The writing must have been on the wall for some time regarding Plus-X. At one point they had such an over stocked situation
that they sold rolls to freestyle who confectioned it as their house brand film - Arista. Do you think that EK would have chanced
their arm on another coating run if demand was so low? Their own TMax films supplanted Panatomic-X and Plus-X and this would have
been based purely on demand for the products. They were probably surprised that demand for Tri-X held up so well. So much for the
brave new world of t-grain films that started around 1983.

It would have been nice if they had announced a final coating run of Plus-X for afficianados and kept in in cool store until we had had our fill.

<fairy godmother mode Long after EK has finished coating and just before KA has sold the last of its stocks of Tri-X and Portra and Ektar, I will
personally see to it that the Kodak IP for film is transferred to a smaller boutique company that can produce the products in a sustainable way.
Or my name's not Perez or the current sh*thead currently in charge of KA /fairy godmother mode>.

tokam said:

The recent retail price increases on Kodak BW products is a harbinger of things to come. KA has to make hay while the sun shines as I personally believe they are on a fixed schedule for product supply.
If I were cynical I would say that we may have already seen the last coating events for some BW products and the retail market is currently being fed by stock in cold storage. I'm sure, however, that there will be very big coating runs prior to decomissioning of the Rochester plant and that will supply the market for another 5+ years.

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Ah, damn. This does seem plausible. Looks like I'll have to use some of the holiday kitty to put a basic Kodak stash in my freezer after all. While the prices are reasonable.

I note that the pro-pack or Portra 160 (120 format) that I bought for $25.95 from Amazon earlier this month is now priced at $41.55. Presumably this is a short-term thing based on them being out of stock (or something...I hope).

omaha said:

I note that the pro-pack or Portra 160 (120 format) that I bought for $25.95 from Amazon earlier this month is now priced at $41.55. Presumably this is a short-term thing based on them being out of stock (or something...I hope).

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And you have a tooth under your pillow waiting for the tooth fairy to replace it with a silver coin?

omaha said:

I note that the pro-pack or Portra 160 (120 format) that I bought for $25.95 from Amazon earlier this month is now priced at $41.55. Presumably this is a short-term thing based on them being out of stock (or something...I hope).

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Its 33.95 on my computer. Maybe you're looking at a different seller. Also you can still get it at a similar price from B&H

B&H has lowered the price of TMY-2 in 4x5 from $109.95 down to $99.94....Kodak is not adjusting the prices on their film, the retailers are, especially the gouging in the Far East.

So far, Kodak Alaris is doing a great job, they answered questions, gave fair assessments of the future of the industry and seem genuinely connected to the task of serving their customer. And they are spot on in terms of product improvements, none needed, full stop. I think they are running the film end of the business exactly how they should, keeping a healthy, low risk profile making and supplying products that actually sell in fair numbers.

Bravo Kodak Alaris!

It pleases me that you are very satisfied with the current status quo regarding Kodak photographic films. I would ask, however, that you keep an open mind regarding the opinions of others who, due to their own unique circumstances and experiences with Kodak that likely differ from yours, may not share your high level of enthusiasm.



Ken

tokam said:

Remember how long Agfa APX100 was available after AGFA ceased production.

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That may have been a extraordinary large coating run in an attempt to get rid of raw stocks by adding value during insolvency.

They make great films, yes some of the best ever made. "No improvements are necessary" is, on the very face of it, a very bizarre statement for any business to make about its products, though. As I said, film itself is not NECESSARY no matter how much many of us might think otherwise. If it vanished tomorrow the world would go on, and frankly pretty much as it has. A lot of people wouldn't even notice. The question should be though, "how can our product be improved?" I can see in the current environment how improvements are not viable, and how they are not "necessary" in the marketing sense, because they already have color neg films superior to any competition, black and white films at least the equal of the competition in each area and in one case especially, TMY-2, probably the best on the market, and have given up E6. So no, they aren't "necessary" since they are already as good or better than the competition.

I'm happy with the films they make now, aside from the lack of E6 and I know that's not coming back. I'm far from happy about sheet film prices. I think most of us feel similar - we may bemoan the loss of old favorites but we realize the current films are superb, and adequate within each type (there's that lack of E6 again, but otherwise adequate.) I could, if I had to, do all my work with 100% Kodak film, with the exception of my slide shows. Heck I could even continue those for a while with my 20 or so rolls of frozen E100G. But I can also do it with Ilford for black and white, and they certainly seem a lot more devoted to the market and their customers. What we are not happy about are a) the way Kodak seems to brush aside concerns, b) the lack of marketing for film based products, c) distribution channel problems, d) pricing of some products far above the competition, and d) the prospects for continued availability (not necessarily in any particular order.)

Roger Cole said:

"No improvements are necessary" is, on the very face of it, a very bizarre statement for any business to make about its products, though.

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But that is the general attitude of the industry. Only that KA were so honest or careless to put it into words.

Just as a matter of interest what improvements are people expecting? Does anyone know what improvements Ilford is currently working on? I'd have thought very little or none given the products it currently produces.

If Ilford were to make a similar statement then I would suddenly be plunged into despair or feel that Ilford was letting me down or confirming my suspicion that it had no long term commitment to film

pentaxuser

If they hadn't brought it up I'd have never said anything about improvements, nor would it really have occurred to me. It was just that the statement "no improvements are necessary" absolutely reeked to me of extreme corporate arrogance. "We already make the best, shut up your whining and buy it." might as well have been what he said.

And while I COULD happily do all my black and white work on Kodak film, I am moving to doing so on Ilford. Now why is that, I wonder? Could it be because a) Ilford makes it clear they are committed to the black and white film market, and to continuing to produce all their current catalog of films, and b) their sheet film prices are something like 75% of Kodak's? (4x5, TXP versus HP5+ comparison. B&H current prices. The situation is worse with TMY-2 for which HP5+ is only 62% of the cost, but it's a fairer comparison to TMY-2.) Humm, could be.

pentaxuser said:

Just as a matter of interest what improvements are people expecting? Does anyone know what improvements Ilford is currently working on? I'd have thought very little or none given the products it currently produces.

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Harman have introduced quite a few new or resurrected products. The most recent being their newly reworked and improved line of printing papers. They have also introduced new developers, new toners, new cameras, and even reintroduced postcard papers. (Given the reality of email, who would have ever thought THAT might work??)

At one time they were even working on a brand new Delta 25 slow speed film. But apparently they could not make it work in the marketplace without suffering unacceptable loses to their own PanF market. And they have repeatedly committed to doing everything in their power to NOT discontinue any product lines. Which to my knowledge, they haven't.

Ken

Roger Cole said:

If they hadn't brought it up I'd have never said anything about improvements, nor would it really have occurred to me. It was just that the statement "no improvements are necessary" absolutely reeked to me of extreme corporate arrogance. "We already make the best, shut up your whining and buy it." might as well have been what he said.

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But if a company thinks that in times of decreasing sales a improvement will not increase sales again, or not suffiently enough to be profitable on spent R&D, then that is what they actually say to their customers.
Most probably in different wording than yours.

I can't see anything wrong in that, even if I would not share their asessment.

Ken, I had defined improvements as improvements to the current range of products, not to the re-introduction of say former products such as paper, HIE, E6 etc

Ilford has been honest enough to tell us that it sees no point in introducing D25 or the equivalent of HIE as it has PanF and SFX

When Ilford tells us these thing we may be disappointed but shrug our shoulders and effectively cut Ilford slack because we believe it would do these things if it could and make a profit so doing but when KA says essentially the same thing we seem to believe it shows as lack of good intentions, lack of faith in film, preparing to sell off the family jewels

A disinterested party, I feel, might conclude that at face value the two companies' positions were not that much different. Alas we seem to be the "hurt party " of the original happy marriage with Kodak who now in the divorce court wonders whatever we saw in our once lovely bride

pentaxuser

pentaxuser said:

Ken, I had defined improvements as improvements to the current range of products, not to the re-introduction of say former products such as paper, HIE, E6 etc

Ilford has been honest enough to tell us that it sees no point in introducing D25 or the equivalent of HIE as it has PanF and SFX

When Ilford tells us these thing we may be disappointed but shrug our shoulders and effectively cut Ilford slack because we believe it would do these things if it could and make a profit so doing but when KA says essentially the same thing we seem to believe it shows as lack of good intentions, lack of faith in film, preparing to sell off the family jewels

A disinterested party, I feel, might conclude that at face value the two companies' positions were not that much different. Alas we seem to be the "hurt party " of the original happy marriage with Kodak who now in the divorce court wonders whatever we saw in our once lovely bride

pentaxuser

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With regard to an HIE like product, I think what they said was the cost involved in a special high nm IR proof production and canisters and paper backing was too high or something similar, and that the cost was too high for the profit.

Of all the ilford films I think SFX is their only failing, it's a poor grained film and doesn't produce enough IR effect to be worth shooting, and is nothing like HIE or Aura...

And I'm a big ilford fan, but I truly believe if they could find a way to bring an 800nm IR film to market, it would sell like hot cakes, especially to the Lomo market and sheet film user market.

How did I get here... Umm I dunno flow of thoughts... But I agree ilford has been innovative, so has ADOX, new film Ferrania, Rollei/maco/AGFAfoto or whatever they are called, coming out with new films and researching constantly.

The only stagnant company is now kodak, and things that lose motion tend to die...