Kodachrome interview

Paul;

The machine determines the film size. It would be hard to describe to one who has never seen or worked with one.

PE

I've always wondered about the fact that one of the requirements for K-14 is an on-site chemist. This obviously increases the cost by a large amount. My question is this...could you run a K-14 line without an on-site chemist if you were not a Kodak authorized/approved Kodachrome developer? I would obviously choose the lab that had Kodak's stamp of approval, but who knows! I know it's all just starry eyed dreaming, but it's fun to dream (for me anyway!)

Ian Grant said:

Dwaynes may well be processing large batches on certain days, when they get the residual shipments of film from Switzerland (all of Europes processing) they won't be sent daily, maybe just once a week, and probably smaller overseas batches from elsewhere, but as others say Dwaynes figures don't match production.

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I'd have to dispute this. If Switzerland are only shipping film to Dwayne's once a week, can you explain how they always achieve a 5-working-day turnaround on the Kodachrome I send to Switzerland? The fact that of those 5 days, 4 must be travel (film UK->Switzerland, film Switzerland->US, slides US->Switzerland, slides Switzerland->UK) suggests Dwaynes are processing them the day they arrive.

Indeed, if I post one film on Monday, and the second film on Tuesday, then I'll almost certainly get the slides from the first film the following Monday, and the slides from the second film the following Tuesday, in my experience.

(Incidentally, you say Dwayne's figures don't match production; do you actually have a a reference for that production figure it doesn't match, or is it just that Dwayne's figures don't match the production rumours that you'd prefer to believe?)



I agree with PE on this. This in entire debate is characterised by the use of supposition, intuition and guesswork as the premises to draw conclusions that are then trumpeted as fact... It's a complete waste of time.

It's Ron (PE) who stated that Dwayne's claimed throughput doesn't match recent production, based on the AP article. (A post you replied to at the time). There must still be a lot of Kodachrome to process from the markets Kodak withdrew the film from about 18 months ago prior to closing their own processing lines.

Many people are complaining of up to 3 weeks turnaround for Kodachrome in Europe, which is at odds with your experience. Maybe Switzerland do ship more frequently but none of this alters the hard facts that Kodachrome processing world wide has been cut savagely in a year to the absolute bare minimum, and that can't be reversed.

There are are some hard facts about Kodachrome, the discontinuation of 120 films, 200 ISO, K25, Super 8, closure of all Private Kodachrome processing facilities except Dwaynes, withdrawal of Kodachrome 64 from some major markets, total closure of all Kodak processing facilities, that's enough to tell you Kodak are very close to phasing out Kodachrome.

We can read anything we like into the AP story, Dwaynes throughput etc but the facts above won't alter.

Ian

Ian Grant said:

It's Ron (PE) who stated that Dwayne's claimed throughput doesn't match recent production, based on the AP article. There must still be a lot of Kodachrome to process from the markets Kodak withdrew the film from about 18 months ago prior to closing their own processing lines.

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So that's a 'no' then. Just a rumour, from an article whose quote actually makes no statement on production (all it does is indicate a vague handwavy idea of production per master roll, it makes no judgement on how many master rolls are actually produced, if you read it.)

Many people are complaining of up to 3 weeks turnaround for Kodachrome in Europe, which is at odds with your experience.

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Are they? Where are these many people? Whenever it's been discussed here I seem to recall most people's experience has been much the same as mine.

There are are some hard facts about Kodachrome, the discontinuation of 120 films, 200 ISO, K25, Super 8, closure of all Private Kodachrome processing facilities except Dwaynes, withdrawal of Kodachrome 64 from some major markets, total closure of all Kodak processing facilities, that's enough to tell you Kodak are very close to phasing out Kodachrome.

We can read anything we like into the AP story, Dwaynes throughput etc but the facts above won't alter.

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Anyone who thinks Kodachrome isn't going to be discontinued is fooling themselves. No disagreement there. It's the continuing use of completely fabricated presumptions presented as fact to 'prove' it that gets on my tits.

Stick to the facts, and I'll have no argument. Start pulling 'facts' like "Switzerland will only ship once a week" out of thin air and it gets annoying. Like you say, there are plenty of genuine facts to predict the demise of Kodachrome, it really doesn't need ill-informed speculation dressed up as fact added in as well.

Just out of interest, I wonder what is the usual return time for K64 posted to Switzerland from the UK.
I've not been checking exactly (it's sometimes a day or two after I've packed them up before I get to the mailbox...local village collection, not a city PO), but it seems about 12-14 days....no longer than that, but never as short as 5 days.
I'll have to make an exact note...not that it really matters, I can live with a couple of weeks turn-round.

railwayman3, the 12-14 days round trip from UK-Switzerland-Dwaynes is about right. Fastest I've ever had is 9 days.

Stan160 said:

railwayman3, the 12-14 days round trip from UK-Switzerland-Dwaynes is about right. Fastest I've ever had is 9 days.

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So my statement of up to 3 weeks is in fact "Correct" Tim, if you do a Google search you find quite a few comments about 3 weeks turnaround, but then this could coincide with US holiday etc. I deliberately didn't include a comments about taking 4 weeks.

Some more facts then, when Dwaynes took over the European processing back in 2006 their throughput was stated to be 1500 rolls from the North American market and then about 1000 additional rolls from Europe at total of 2500 rolls per day.

Now Grant Steinle in the Interview the thread is about states "we are probably doing over a 1000 rolls of Kodachrome every day" that is well down on the figure two years previously, and Dwaynes are getting all Kodachrome processing from the Far East as well.

If threads like this and others on APUG and other Forums boost remaining Kodachrome sales and prompt people to use the film that's beneficial to all users as it means Dwaynes Kodachrome line will stay profitable for longer.

The Tag line for the Interview is: There is talk that after 2009, Kodachrome will no longer be supported by Kodak. No one knows that for sure, but now down to only one processing lab, the future doesn’t look good.

Ian

Ian Grant said:

If threads like this and others on APUG and other Forums boost remaining Kodachrome sales and prompt people to use the film that's beneficial to all users as it means Dwaynes Kodachrome line will stay profitable for longer.

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Thanks for saying "other forums".

One of the biggest problems I see on this site on this topic, by one forum member in particular is that all the credit to an increase in Kodachrome usage of late seems to go to the AP article and APUG alone. Total BS. There are other sites, other people, other passions involved.

There is a big world outside of "Techy" APUG and they have an impact too. APUG is not the center of the analog universe.

I posted about this last night, it got deleted. So I will say it differently: When posts on the topic of Kodachrome start to take on a more broad approach as to the facts of who is having an impact, I will return to posting here. But until then, I have had enough. I know my opinion is valued less on here since I am just a photographer who is trying to shoot good Kodachrome and not a photo technician so I should just kindly bow out.

Good luck with your constant dissection of Kodachrome's status, I'm sure it really leads to great photographs...

Ian Grant said:

So my statement of up to 3 weeks is in fact "Correct" Tim, if you do a Google search you find quite a few comments about 3 weeks turnaround, but then this could coincide with US holiday etc. I deliberately didn't include a comments about taking 4 weeks.

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"Correct" in the sense that you've found an example to back you up. Now I grant you, it's been quite a while since I studied the scientific method, but I'm reasonably sure one or two anecdotes doesn't make a proof.

I'll see your two anecdotes, and raise you six rolls in three months none of which have taken more than 6 working days. Of course, that's anecdotal as well, but then again I don't have the burden of proof here - it's not me claiming Switzerland only post once or week, and it's not me claiming the guy from Dwayne's is lying or mistaken.

I assume the sources of your anecdotes are putting the correct international postage on their mailers...

Some more facts then, when Dwaynes took over the European processing back in 2006 their throughput was stated to be 1500 rolls from the North American market and then about 1000 additional rolls from Europe at total of 2500 rolls per day.

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Interesting facts. If they're true, don't they rather put to bed the "but Dwayne's K14 line probably doesn't have capacity to do 1000 rolls/day so the quote must be a mistake" argument? After all, if they used to be capable of 2,500 rolls/day it would seem logical they're capable of the 1,000 rolls/day figure you don't believe.

The Tag line for the Interview is: There is talk that after 2009, Kodachrome will no longer be supported by Kodak. No one knows that for sure, but now down to only one processing lab, the future doesn’t look good.

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Preaching to the choir, there.

Ian Grant said:

So my statement of up to 3 weeks is in fact "Correct" Tim, if you do a Google search you find quite a few comments about 3 weeks turnaround, but then this could coincide with US holiday etc. I deliberately didn't include a comments about taking 4 weeks.

Some more facts then, when Dwaynes took over the European processing back in 2006 their throughput was stated to be 1500 rolls from the North American market and then about 1000 additional rolls from Europe at total of 2500 rolls per day.

Now Grant Steinle in the Interview the thread is about states "we are probably doing over a 1000 rolls of Kodachrome every day" that is well down on the figure two years previously, and Dwaynes are getting all Kodachrome processing from the Far East as well.

If threads like this and others on APUG and other Forums boost remaining Kodachrome sales and prompt people to use the film that's beneficial to all users as it means Dwaynes Kodachrome line will stay profitable for longer.

The Tag line for the Interview is: There is talk that after 2009, Kodachrome will no longer be supported by Kodak. No one knows that for sure, but now down to only one processing lab, the future doesn’t look good.

Ian

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There needs to be some reality here, there is a huge variable that nobody is taking into account, and that is customs. Customs can hold whatever they want, for as long as they want, and there is nothing anyone can do about it.

When you send a mailer from Britain to Switzerland, it passes through customs, if it hits a good customs agent at a not busy time, then he/she will look at it, hmm, film mailer going to film processor, it's film, next. Then the folks in Switzerland pack the rolls into boxes or bags, and ship to the US, the size of the package probably has more to do with when it goes then anything else. Many companies have daily carrier pickups scheduled, if there is nothing, then the carrier leaves again, if a package is ready, then it goes. The shipping is cheap enough, if they use a good carrier, whether you send a package a day, or 7 packages a week, it doesn't make much difference, cost wise. Now it goes from Switzerland to the US, and again goes through customs, it again depends on the customs agent, if the agent is good and not busy then it can pass through in seconds. A clueless customs agent who is busy can hold things up for days. On the return side it again goes through customs twice. Customs delays alone can easily add 4-5 days (if not more) to shipping time.

As for ending Kodachrome in 2009, I am surprised it lasted as long as it has....

I don't think you can garner anything from delayed return times. The Kodachrome I've shot recently has taken about a month to get back to me, and I'm a lot closer to Kansas then the UK is. The problem is that I'm sending it through London Drugs, and they are clearly sending it through an intermediary, and I expect that both London Drugs and the intermediary are sending it in batches (e.g. LD sends to the intermediary on Wednesday each week, the intermediary sends to Dwaynes (through customs) each Friday, Dwaynes sends it back to the intermediary ...).

One week service from the UK, through Switzerland seems to me to just about guarantee that Dwaynes is running Kodachrome on a daily basis.

I wonder how much of the Kodachrome being processed is movie film?

Matt

PS I sure miss my former delivery times (Dad, can you take a roll in to work with you this morning, so I can have it back tonight?)

PKM-25 said:

Thanks for saying "other forums".

One of the biggest problems I see on this site on this topic, by one forum member in particular is that all the credit to an increase in Kodachrome usage of late seems to go to the AP article and APUG alone. Total BS. There are other sites, other people, other passions involved.

There is a big world outside of "Techy" APUG and they have an impact too. APUG is not the center of the analog universe.

I posted about this last night, it got deleted. So I will say it differently: When posts on the topic of Kodachrome start to take on a more broad approach as to the facts of who is having an impact, I will return to posting here. But until then, I have had enough. I know my opinion is valued less on here since I am just a photographer who is trying to shoot good Kodachrome and not a photo technician so I should just kindly bow out.

Good luck with your constant dissection of Kodachrome's status, I'm sure it really leads to great photographs...

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I value your posts, and value even more what you are trying to do.

Matt

Good morning, PKM-25;

This is sad. Your departure will leave a void. It is obvious just from the name you have chosen that you are also a long time user of Kodachrome.

If you have read any of my messages regarding my feelings toward the Eastman-Kodak Company, you will note that I am unhappy not only about KM-25, but also FX-32 and TP-25. All of their films that worked so nicely when testing camera lenses are no longer available. Now we are also looking at the possible demise of KM-64. Forty to fifty years ago, anyone who came out with a color transparency film knew that it was going to be compared against KM-25 from E-KCo. (Where are Anscochrome and Dynachrome now, anyway?)

Most of the arguments for the loss of these films center around the economic factors. I cannot make any definite comments about those factors. Ron Mowrey is probably the best person on this forum to do that, and he has done so for us, regardless of whether or not we like his reports. Truth and facts may not be what we really want to hear.

If you would like a similar story, I have also worked as a sound technician with a specialty in large studio type audio tape recorders, up to two inch wide 15 inch reels at 30 ips. I know the difference in the sound of digital recording and audio tape recording in terms of the dynamic range, frequency response, "color," "brilliance," and some other characteristics. My training certificates came from Ampex. I cringe whenever I read that a recording has been "digitally remastered from the original audio recordings." To me, that means that something more has been lost. However, to the vast majority of the people listening to their music in their car at 60 MPH, they sound fine. I have had to accept that, and, while the way that I used to do this is no longer available, at least the basic sound of the recording is still there for people to enjoy. If you want to marvel at some numbers some time, just ask Bob Heil of Heil Sound how much the Beatles paid just for the air freight to and from London to get to use Bob's still working tube type (thermionic emission valves) audio recording equipment when the Beatles made their last album together. There is a difference in the way that a tube type system sounds in comparison with the digital recording systems of today.

At least there are some bright glows on one or two of the hilltops around us. Recently I learned that Adox has an ASA 25 rated high resolution black and white 35 mm film. The Fuji people are still making Fujiroid for those of us with holders who still like to make a final through-the-lens check of the image and lighting before loading a sheet of film. The only way that people with a digital camera will understand why we insist on continuing to use this antiquated technology is to show them a same size print in a side by side comparison of film and digital photography.

PKM-25, if you truly have decided to withdraw, you will be missed. Your efforts and encouragement to other film users to continue to use KM-64 have been appreciated.

Perhaps Tim you are being overly pedantic, my saying up to three weeks doesn't mean or imply that all films take close to a 3 week turnaround, Kodak themselves say up to 2 weeks turnaround, and that's what Railwayman and Stan160 have posted since my comments stated they have been experiencing but there are plenty (not 1 or 2) of posts on this Forum and elsewhere about longer delays, and yes also a very few posts about excessive delays of over 3 weeks and by the posters own admissions are usually postal issues, wrong address, incorrect postage not an issue of Kodak/Dwaynes systems.

When I first questioned the 1000 rolls a day figure that was before the Interview was posted, now I've seen it I still think I'm right to question it. I just don't think there's that much film floating around now. A manager knows exactly how much film is processed every a day, saying "Probably ding a 1000" is deliberately woolly.

Others have based figures on what they think Dwaynes maximum capacity might be, but that's making assumptions on a variety of things like a 5 day 40hr week. However when Dwaynes took on the European processing they expanded their work-force taking on additional staff, I have a gut feeling they ran an extra shift to cope. I have a good memory for remembering things, but not where I saw them or put them

We can all argue until we are blue in the face about the various snippets of truth about Kodachromes future. I'll freely admit I don't like Kodachrome now only K64 is available, I used a little KII but mainly K25, and I shot a few frames of the earlier 50's version, but I've never liked K64 at all.

But there needs to be more realism about the future of K64, some people still love it, it would be more helpful if Kodak made an official statement, instead the AP story seemed to emanate from within the company unofficially.

To be fair to Kodak UK they certainly tried to turn the tide with faster Kodachrome processing for professionals in the UK, great if you were based in or very close to London but useless elsewhere.

It's Kodachrome's uniqueness that's its final undoing, maybe if Kodak's processing monopoly had be broken worldwide and faster turnaround been widely available it could have competed against E6 films. But few professionals could afford to waits days, perhaps a week, for processed films when E6 was a 2hr turnaround.

There is perhaps one final issue, many photographers shoot multi-format & want to use film that's available in all of them. Some thing many of us did with Fuji or Kodak E6 films.

We can't change what's been done, some of you have to ensure that if or rather when Kodak announce Kodachrome's demise you have sufficient film and a clear understanding of any announced processing deadlines. Maybe your Motto should be: Kodachrome - Use it before we loose it.

I don't shoot colour for my personal work at the moment, but if I did then I'd give Kodachrome 64 a blast, it suits the weather and lighting better here than in the UK.

Ian

Hello to all,

I still only read a lot on APUG, before I will post regularly, but here are some facts I can tell you all about now. Regular user's experience. My first experience with K64 was for my highschool trip to the UK in 1991 with my first 35mm camera. Then I started doing Kodachrome again in 2003 when I bought my first reflex. And I began using K40 Super 8 a year later.

So the facts I can remember are here. I will post again when I'll have translated and found again material I have about all that. That can be a little off-topic, but, well, all Kodachrome lovers read here, and it might help a little to understand. For the Renens/Lausanne (Switzerland) processing :

- they were running the old K-line until they closed down the lab, not the recent machine they use at Dwayne's.

- the process was made on a daily basis except for push/pull processing once a week. I had my films back in 7 to 14 days (France to Switzerland), the faster in winter, the busiest in late summer

- Super 8 was not on a daily basis, but it has always been faster than 35mm slides for me. I even had posted it on monday and got my film back home on saturday.

- When the lab closed down in 2006 I sent around 15 films by express mail, I wanted to get them "Swiss made" for the last time. The french customs didn't understand what it was and kept the package for a week and even called me to check, so it arrived too late in Renens. Kodak explained me the slides were sent to Dwayne's except the push/pull ones I would have to send to the US by myself, because Kodak cannot charge for the push/pull processing at Dwayne's. The Super 8 were processed in Switzerland, I guess they had received a large amount of film to process for this last time, so mine weren't too late

- as for the mounts used in Renens, in '91 i got them on paper, in 2003-2006 they were made of thin plastic. If I wrote "paper pls" on the corner of the process-paid enveloppe, I got them with paper mounts. When cutting this corner of the enveloppe you always got the slides in stripes, of course, that was written on the instruction sheet. We don't have this instruction sheet anymore in Europe since the film is packed in Mexico and the design of the cartridge has been lightly changed, so only experienced users of Kodachrome know about this "cut the corner to get it unmounted".

Now, Dwayne's sends back unmounted films only uncut and in a paper roll, in the "Europe 475" enveloppes you can see in the report. I haven't experienced yet about sending a single roll I want uncut, so I don't know if Kodak Renens adds another enveloppe or plastic around to send it back home. My last package was made of 17 films, next will be more. From time to time I send a single film, but I use to collect and save money for shipping. The postal turnaround now is 3 weeks for my big package, for a single film it is 2 weeks. Considering the previous time I waited when it was processed in Renens, I see no change except for winter which was faster. It is just the same turnaround time all the year now.

Dwayne's does a great job so I enjoy Kodachrome and I'll use it while it lasts, it is even more cheaper here in the country in France than to drive to a place where you can find slide film, and drive again to get it processed, or let it at the supermarket corner and wait the same time. I am just lucky I can buy and process everything I want in Germany, not far away. So Kodachrome is really a heart choice. On holiday I often take Kodachrome for archival, and other E6 for scanning, in the same time.

Thanks God Deep Frost, I can still enjoy K25 I bought on the big bid place to loyal professionals (K25 from '87, and K25 from last batches) or K200 I stocked (last brick ever from MX2 UK... unopened by them, with the sticker from Kodak France who shipped it to them). And I enjoy new stocks of K64, simply while it lasts...

Off-topic : as for K40 Super 8, folks, I think there is an issue. I just read on a french forum that Dwayne's might stop the processing of old K40 stocks in late 2008, the news comes from the french guy who deals with them. I will translate and quote him soon. He says he'll have news at the end of the year, about eventual processing in 2009. I will also ask them directly. Because maybe it is time for me for a big winterly Super 8 party with my last Kodachromes...

One year ago, on my road back home from south France, I drove to the Renens lab in the Lausanne Suburbs at night. No chance to let films here at night, the mailbox for films is closed forever. The lab is becoming grass and dust kingdom. On the entrance you can see the office opening times. I just took a pic of the historical mailbox... with my mobile phone. It was so cold I didn't came back to my car to take my tripod and my camera... Next time, maybe.

And from now, I will post my K64 on my website. Holiday and interest pics, stereo pics, but also everyday pics with a cheap camera. Share with friends, and others. Trying to create interest. That is the best advertisement I can try to do, we can try to do.

Thank you all for having read this long long stuff ! Good night

Stephane

Very interesting, Stephane, thank you.

Do you have a website showing your Kodachromes?

railwayman3 said:

Very interesting, Stephane, thank you.

Do you have a website showing your Kodachromes?

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Not yet. I am building the website and beginning to scan them. But be sure I will let you all know about when the first pictures will be online.

I know I read someone said in this thread that Kodachrome will end in 2009. I just got 10 rolls with emulsion 1559 and an exp date of 02/2010. This is the first K64 I have got with a new emulsion number and a 2010 date. Not sure if it means anything but hey its 2010.

As far as Dwaynes machine I am sure it is not a K-Lab as Kodak states the Bag in a Box chemicals are DC'd. Trust me I have looked at that K Mini lab Rockey Mountain film has fore sale and dream if I ever won the lottery I might give it a go.

Last talking about Rocky Mountain Film they still claim to process K-14 as color so they must have a lab still yet their price and turnaround is crazy.

Jim

james23p said:

Last talking about Rocky Mountain Film they still claim to process K-14 as color so they must have a lab still yet their price and turnaround is crazy.

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Or maybe they just send it to Kansas & mark it up.

goldie said:

james23p said:

Last talking about Rocky Mountain Film they still claim to process K-14 as color so they must have a lab still yet their price and turnaround is crazy.

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Or maybe they just send it to Kansas & mark it up.

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Hey! No fair giving away my secrets. I already offered to do this in another thread some months ago. Everyone who has a burning desire to throw money away can send me their Kodachrome and a check for $35/each and I'll get it back to them in about 6 weeks. I've got a great lab that does all my K-14 processing for me.

james23p said:

I just got 10 rolls with emulsion 1559 and an exp date of 02/2010.

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That's encouraging.

SVeron said:

Off-topic : as for K40 Super 8, folks, I think there is an issue. I just read on a french forum that Dwayne's might stop the processing of old K40 stocks in late 2008, the news comes from the french guy who deals with them. I will translate and quote him soon. He says he'll have news at the end of the year, about eventual processing in 2009. I will also ask them directly. Because maybe it is time for me for a big winterly Super 8 party with my last Kodachromes...

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I just got the reply from Dwayne's, as long as Kodak is still making Kodachrome in 35mm, they will keep on processing Super 8 films and they have no plan to stop that.

Stephane

If anyone wants to take a peek inside Dwayne's, check out this video clip from a local Kansas TV station:

http://www.kake.com/hattebergpeople/headlines/30496989.html

The tone of the piece is somewhat negative (as in, bye-bye Kodachrome soon), but it's still neat to see what this place we've all been talking about is like.

Ummm, Silverhead, that is the URL which was in the OP and which started this entire thread.

PE