Kodachrome Cinema Film

CMoore · Mar 31, 2022

When they say "For Movies"............are they talking about Hollywood Movies.?
Did RKO, MGM, Paramount, etc etc etc shoot well known movies on Kodachrome.?
Thank You

I am quoting from Wikipedia below.

35 mm for movies (exclusively through Technicolor Corp as "Technicolor Monopack")

Kodachrome was the first color film that used a subtractive color method to be successfully mass-marketed. Previous materials, such as Autochrome and Dufaycolor, had used the additive screenplate methods. Until its discontinuation, Kodachrome was the oldest surviving brand of color film. It was manufactured for 74 years in various formats to suit still and motion picture cameras, including 8 mm, Super 8, 16 mm for movies (exclusively through Eastman Kodak), and 35 mm for movies (exclusively through Technicolor Corp as "Technicolor Monopack") and 35 mm, 120, 110, 126, 828 and large format for still photography.

cmacd123 · Mar 31, 2022

one of the various processes used for technicolor, replaced the 3 strip process for a few movies.

Alex Benjamin · Mar 31, 2022

Did a wee bit of research on this a while back and could find no evidence of a major motion picture shot on 35mm Kodachrome.

AgX · Mar 31, 2022

"movies" in this context means "moving pictures" or "cinematic"

AgX · Mar 31, 2022

The first movies in the meaning of commercial, full-feature movies taken on subtractive film were made in Germany, on Agfacolor negative film.

MattKing · Mar 31, 2022

An interesting link: https://filmcolors.org/timeline-entry/1302/
Lassie, in Kodachrome.

markjwyatt · Mar 31, 2022

Alex Benjamin said:
Did a wee bit of research on this a while back and could find no evidence of a major motion picture shot on 35mm Kodachrome.

Wasn't Disney's Fantasia shot on Kodachrome? Maybe that is not a "major motion picture".

Alex Benjamin · Mar 31, 2022

markjwyatt said:
Wasn't Disney's Fantasia shot on Kodachrome? Maybe that is not a "major motion picture".

Nope. Fantasia was shot in Technicolor, not Kodachrome.

Should add that Kodachrome and Technicolor were both new subtractive color process, each in their field, but Technicolor pre-dates Kodachrome by a full decade.

MattKing · Apr 1, 2022

That link I posted indicates that one moderately early version of Technicolor - Technicolor Monopack - used a type of Kodachrome stock.

markjwyatt · Apr 1, 2022

Alex Benjamin said:
Nope. Fantasia was shot in Technicolor, not Kodachrome.

Should add that Kodachrome and Technicolor were both new subtractive color process, each in their field, but Technicolor pre-dates Kodachrome by a full decade.

Intersting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technicolor
I thought Fantasia was made on Kodachrome. Kind of a bummer, but good to know the facts.

Technicolor for Fantasia used 3 strips, while Kodachrome made it on one strip (monopack as MattKing said).

AgX · Apr 1, 2022

AgX said:
The first movies in the meaning of commercial, full-feature movies taken on subtractive film were made in Germany, on Agfacolor negative film.

Well, "Dive Bombers" was released the same year as "Frauen sind doch bessere Diplomaten", 1941.
Thus the day would decide...

Here a list by Barbara Flueckiger of full feature movies taken on Kodachrome:
(though these movies were still the exception to the rule as which the Agfacolor way would be established)

Dive Bomber (USA 1941, Michael Curtiz)
Captains of the Clouds (USA 1942, Michael Curtiz)
Forest Rangers (USA 1942, George Marshall)
Saludos Amigos (USA 1942, Wilfred Jackson/ Jack Kinney/ Hamilton Luske/ Bill Roberts)
Lassie Come Home (USA 1943, Fred M. Wilcox)
Report from the Aleutians (USA 1943, John Huston)
Fighting Lady (USA 1944, Edward Steichen)
Marines at Tarawa (USA 1944, Louis Hayward)
Memphis Belle (USA 1944, William Wyler)
English Village (GBR 1944-1945 [exact year unknown], Darrel Catling)
Thunderhead- Son of Flicka (USA 1945, Louis King)
XIV Olympiad – The Glory of Sport (GBR 1948, Castleton Knight)
King Solomon’s Mines (USA 1950, Compton Bennett/ Andrew Marton)1
Stars and Stripes Forever (USA 1952, Henry Koster)

(Flueckiger, Barbara (2012 ff.): Timeline of Historical Film Colors. (filmcolors.org)

Alex Benjamin · Apr 1, 2022

AgX said:
Well, "Dive Bombers" was released the same year as "Frauen sind doch bessere Diplomaten", 1941.
Thus the day would decide...

Here a list by Barbara Flueckiger of full feature movies taken on Kodachrome:
(though these movies were still the exception to the rule as which the Agfacolor way would be established)

Dive Bomber (USA 1941, Michael Curtiz)
Captains of the Clouds (USA 1942, Michael Curtiz)
Forest Rangers (USA 1942, George Marshall)
Saludos Amigos (USA 1942, Wilfred Jackson/ Jack Kinney/ Hamilton Luske/ Bill Roberts)
Lassie Come Home (USA 1943, Fred M. Wilcox)
Report from the Aleutians (USA 1943, John Huston)
Fighting Lady (USA 1944, Edward Steichen)
Marines at Tarawa (USA 1944, Louis Hayward)
Memphis Belle (USA 1944, William Wyler)
English Village (GBR 1944-1945 [exact year unknown], Darrel Catling)
Thunderhead- Son of Flicka (USA 1945, Louis King)
XIV Olympiad – The Glory of Sport (GBR 1948, Castleton Knight)
King Solomon’s Mines (USA 1950, Compton Bennett/ Andrew Marton)1
Stars and Stripes Forever (USA 1952, Henry Koster)

(Flueckiger, Barbara (2012 ff.): Timeline of Historical Film Colors. (filmcolors.org)

Read somewhere (can't fin the reference) that while Technicolor experimented with the Kodachrome process (or some elements of it), they abandoned that avenue as it proved too expensive. Lassie Come Home would end up being the only film entirely shot on Kodachrome (or a modified Technicolor version of it).

Interesting that there is a film by Edward Steichen, who would end up following Beaumont Newhall as director of MoMA's department of photography, on that list. Be curious to know how much of it was actually shot on Kodachrome (Wiki says the arial shots were Technicolor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fighting_Lady).

If you want true correspondance between photography film and cinematic film, check out the movies made by the French director of photography Raoul Coutard (https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raoul_Coutard) for the cinematographers of the Nouvelle Vague, Jean-Luc Godard (Alphaville, A bout de souffle, Pierrot le fou) and François Truffaut (Jules et Jim) principally. They were filmed on Ilford HPS, which was Ilford's fast, ASA 800 film, they sold in the 50s alongside FP3 (125 ASA) and HP3 (400 ASA). Saw Alphaville again a few nights ago, and the photography is absoutely stunning.

Alan Edward Klein · Apr 1, 2022

MattKing said:
An interesting link: https://filmcolors.org/timeline-entry/1302/
Lassie, in Kodachrome.

Matt your link lists the following:
Films
Dive Bomber (USA 1941, Michael Curtiz)1, 5
Captains of the Clouds (USA 1942, Michael Curtiz)1, 5
Forest Rangers (USA 1942, George Marshall)1, 5
Saludos Amigos (USA 1942, Wilfred Jackson/ Jack Kinney/ Hamilton Luske/ Bill Roberts)
Lassie Come Home (USA 1943, Fred M. Wilcox)1, 2
Report from the Aleutians (USA 1943, John Huston)
Fighting Lady (USA 1944, Edward Steichen)4
Marines at Tarawa (USA 1944, Louis Hayward)
Memphis Belle (USA 1944, William Wyler)
English Village (GBR 1944-1945 [exact year unknown], Darrel Catling)6
Thunderhead- Son of Flicka (USA 1945, Louis King)1, 3, 5
XIV Olympiad – The Glory of Sport (GBR 1948, Castleton Knight)
King Solomon’s Mines (USA 1950, Compton Bennett/ Andrew Marton)1
Stars and Stripes Forever (USA 1952, Henry Koster)

AgX · Apr 1, 2022

Alan, I presented already this list.
The issue however is that hardly anyone knows of these movies and the common idea (and likely a good representation of the actual situation) is that colour films in the early years in the USA were made the classic Technicolor way and in continental Europe the Agfacolor way.
Using Kodachrome meant, as with Agfacolor, using smaller cameras, and thus being more mobile.

CMoore · Apr 1, 2022

AgX said:
Well, "Dive Bombers" was released the same year as "Frauen sind doch bessere Diplomaten", 1941.
Thus the day would decide...

Here a list by Barbara Flueckiger of full feature movies taken on Kodachrome:
(though these movies were still the exception to the rule as which the Agfacolor way would be established)

Dive Bomber (USA 1941, Michael Curtiz)
Captains of the Clouds (USA 1942, Michael Curtiz)
Forest Rangers (USA 1942, George Marshall)
Saludos Amigos (USA 1942, Wilfred Jackson/ Jack Kinney/ Hamilton Luske/ Bill Roberts)
Lassie Come Home (USA 1943, Fred M. Wilcox)
Report from the Aleutians (USA 1943, John Huston)
Fighting Lady (USA 1944, Edward Steichen)
Marines at Tarawa (USA 1944, Louis Hayward)
Memphis Belle (USA 1944, William Wyler)
English Village (GBR 1944-1945 [exact year unknown], Darrel Catling)
Thunderhead- Son of Flicka (USA 1945, Louis King)
XIV Olympiad – The Glory of Sport (GBR 1948, Castleton Knight)
King Solomon’s Mines (USA 1950, Compton Bennett/ Andrew Marton)1
Stars and Stripes Forever (USA 1952, Henry Koster)

(Flueckiger, Barbara (2012 ff.): Timeline of Historical Film Colors. (filmcolors.org)

Alan Edward Klein said:
Matt your link lists the following:
Films
Dive Bomber (USA 1941, Michael Curtiz)1, 5
Captains of the Clouds (USA 1942, Michael Curtiz)1, 5
Forest Rangers (USA 1942, George Marshall)1, 5
Saludos Amigos (USA 1942, Wilfred Jackson/ Jack Kinney/ Hamilton Luske/ Bill Roberts)
Lassie Come Home (USA 1943, Fred M. Wilcox)1, 2
Report from the Aleutians (USA 1943, John Huston)
Fighting Lady (USA 1944, Edward Steichen)4
Marines at Tarawa (USA 1944, Louis Hayward)
Memphis Belle (USA 1944, William Wyler)
English Village (GBR 1944-1945 [exact year unknown], Darrel Catling)6
Thunderhead- Son of Flicka (USA 1945, Louis King)1, 3, 5
XIV Olympiad – The Glory of Sport (GBR 1948, Castleton Knight)
King Solomon’s Mines (USA 1950, Compton Bennett/ Andrew Marton)1
Stars and Stripes Forever (USA 1952, Henry Koster)

AgX said:
Alan, I presented already this list.
The issue however is that hardly anyone knows of these movies and the common idea (and likely a good representation of the actual situation) is that colour films in the early years in the USA were made the classic Technicolor way and in continental Europe the Agfacolor way.
Using Kodachrome meant, as with Agfacolor, using smaller cameras, and thus being more mobile.

That is a great Web-Site about Technicolor and color film.
And yes, the Technicolor Cameras were HUGE when they wore used with their sound-proof dog house.
I have seen stills from The Wizard Of Oz that showed the cameras on a boom........they were Gigantic.
Just the lighting bill for Technicolor was a BIG Additional Cost.

Thanks to ALL for the great replies..!!!

cmacd123 · Apr 1, 2022

Technicolor used a Kodachrome stock as "technicolor MONOPACK." as opposed to the three strip camera negative used in "Normal" technicolor. The monopack could be shot in a "Plain" 35mm camera the same as black and white. Once it was developed, and edited, they then made the 3 strip separations and the three matrixes used like the three strip Negatives. the tradeoff was that the three strip done with the technicolor Camera was often considered "Better" than the monopack. BUT the monopack used any 35mm camera that was available, even a hand held one like an Eyemo, so some scenes were better off done that way.

in all cases the actual prints for the theaters were done with the tecnicolour IB dye transfer process.

shortly thereafter the first EASTMAN color Negative appeared, and the three strip cameras became museum pieces. Since the negative was more versatile, the monopack quickly faded. Technicolor still used the 3 matrix printing process, but from an EASTMAN color Negative, while direct prints could be made using EASTMAN color print film.

Alan Edward Klein · Apr 1, 2022

Is Eastman Color similar to Cinestill?

mohmad khatab · Apr 1, 2022

AgX said:
The first movies in the meaning of commercial, full-feature movies taken on subtractive film were made in Germany, on Agfacolor negative film.

I totally agree with you my dear friend

AgX · Apr 1, 2022

Well, as said Agfa could have been beaten by that one "Dive Bomber" movie. If that matters.

But basically the neg/pos process evolved for small and medium runs. The Technicolor process for large runs, later as sole Technicolor (and similar) prints.

MattKing · Apr 1, 2022

Alan Edward Klein said:
Is Eastman Color similar to Cinestill?

Cinestill takes the current version of Vision, which long ago replaced Eastmancolor, either removes the remjet or has Eastman Kodak do it for them, and sells it to people who usually intend to process it in a process not designed for it (C-41) rather than the process it is designed for (ECN-2).
Those people end up with results that have excess halation, strange contrast behaviors and unusual colour performance.
Then they blog about how wonderful it is.
There is only some sarcasm in this post.

cmacd123 · Apr 1, 2022

EASTMAN color negative was the first generation, it was replaced by EASTMAN Color negative 2, and then by EXR and several version of Vison. During much of this time Kodak and Fuji were neck and Neck in a competition to make better movie camera negative film. Fuji withdrew from the movie business and improvements have slowed down.

for movie negative there have been two processes, ECN, and now ECN2 for movie prints they are on ECP2() with variations as the last remaining colour print film has done away with REMJET to save water as many prints were made in California where their is a water shortage. Camera Negative still uses REMJET as their is no better way.

CineStill uses a version of vison3 negative without REMJET, and without any other technology to replace it. then it is marketed for cross processing in C41 rather than ECN2
movie prins are now quite rare, as almost all theaters are exclusively digital, unless the movie was done by Chris Nolan.

falotico · Apr 1, 2022

We should also mention John Ford's "Battle of Midway" which contained combat scenes originally shot on 16mm Kodachrome. Ford had his home movie camera with him when he visited Midway Island and rushed to film the Japanese attack--which was a surprise to him!

The problem with Kodachrome, as Ron Mowrey once told me, is "the only that Kodachrome can't photograph is another piece of Kodachrome". Technicolor pioneered a process of photographing color movies on black and white film stock. This meant that well established black and white technology could be used to edit and copy the negatives of color film. You couldn't use Kodachrome to copy Kodachrome, so source material that originated on Kodachrome had to be copied to black and white separation negatives and then integrated into the Technicolor process.

ALSO Technicolor had the rights to the Troland patent for a mono pack film. Technicolor had entered into an agreement with Kodak that Kodak could use a mono pack for Kodachrome as long as it was limited to amateur usage. Technicolor did use a 35mm Kodachrome mono pack on rare occasions, but this meant going through the steps of printing separation negatives and the color wasn't as good.

Dr. Hanson of Kodak during WWII invented a process which allowed a color negative to print directly to a color print stock. When the Troland patent ran out around 1954 Kodak started producing mono pack Eastman Color Neg and Technicolor stopped using the three-strip cameras.

Chan Tran · Apr 1, 2022

I thought Holywood always shot with negative film stock so that they can make prints for distribution.

markjwyatt · Apr 1, 2022

MattKing said:
Cinestill takes the current version of Vision, which long ago replaced Eastmancolor, either removes the remjet or has Eastman Kodak do it for them, and sells it to people who usually intend to process it in a process not designed for it (C-41) rather than the process it is designed for (ECN-2).
Those people end up with results that have excess halation, strange contrast behaviors and unusual colour performance.
Then they blog about how wonderful it is.
There is only some sarcasm in this post.

And that sarcasm is all in the first sentence, right?

AgX · Apr 1, 2022

Chan Tran said:
I thought Holywood always shot with negative film stock so that they can make prints for distribution.

But then you need a working neg/pos process. In this Agfa was ahead of Kodak.

But as this thread showed one not necessarily needs a negative as source. The Technicolor process involved 3 matrix films for printing anyway.

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