Kodachrome and Custom made RGB Filters , Does it solve the problem ?

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There are many custom filter makers for military and space customers and I am thinking to invest in for kodachrome colors.
Do custom R, G and B filter solves all the problem?

or what else needed beyond rgb filters ?

Umut
 
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Gerald C Koch

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The distinctive look of Kodachrome was due to a faulty color coupler that did not correctly fit with other two. Not sure how this mismatch could be duplicated with filters.
 
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Rudeofus

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RGB filters are linear filter systems, whereas film is highly non-linear, therefore it would be pure coincidence if such a filter existed that could map one film's behaviour into the other's. It's also impossible to create a difference in colour saturation with an optical filter. Since Kodachrome likely had different spectral sensitizers to Fuji's current slide film offerings (or any other light sensitive medium while we are at it), you may not even be able to recreate the complete Kodachrome effect in the digital realm.
 

Gerald C Koch

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It's rather strange all the interest in Kodachrome. Pity it wasn't around when it was still being sold.

"Don't it always seem to go
That you don't know what you've got
Till it's gone

They paved paradise
And put up a parking lot"
 
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RGB filters are linear filter systems, whereas film is highly non-linear, therefore it would be pure coincidence if such a filter existed that could map one film's behaviour into the other's. It's also impossible to create a difference in colour saturation with an optical filter. Since Kodachrome likely had different spectral sensitizers to Fuji's current slide film offerings (or any other light sensitive medium while we are at it), you may not even be able to recreate the complete Kodachrome effect in the digital realm.

Why film is highly nonlinear ? Fluid dynamics , nonlinear optical characteristics , I cant think other ?

may be nonlinearity comes from layers of disoriented lattice and with its interaction with light .

this is about grain and color layers.
 
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Rudeofus

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Why film is highly nonlinear ? Fluid dynamics , nonlinear optical characteristics , I cant think other ?

may be nonlinearity comes from layers of disoriented lattice and with its interaction with light .

this is about grain and color layers.

Its scene brightness to projected image brightness characteristic looks linear on a logarithmic scale, but since the slope on this logarithmic scale is larger than one, it turns into a power law on a linear scale. If you, for example look at the characteristic curve of Fuji Velvia 50 (section 19 on page 8 here), and if you set projected image brightness to -D, you get a straight slope of ((-0.25) - (-3.25)) / (0 - (-2)) = 1.5, which means linear projected image brightness P and scene brightness S are related through the following power law: P(S) = S(3/2). As a result, P(S1+S2) is not equal to P(S1) + P(S2). Weak spectral contributions, or spectral contributions outside the wavelength sensitivity maximum, will yield sub proportional effect. This will show strong differences, if the spectral sensitization of two films is different, too.

Now look at the graph in section 20, also page 8 of this data sheet, here you see the spectral sensitization of each colour layer. This is the part where the whole spectral distribution of incoming light is compressed into a vector of three colour data components. Each film does this differently, and the same thing is done in digital sensors. The graph in this section e.g. shows that Velvia 50 is mostly insensitive to light between 480 and 500 nm, and also between 590 and 620 nm, i.e. light at these wavelength ranges will show up only weakly in your slides. Since real information is thrown away here, this information can not be recreated by a computer, and therefore I think that even computer algos can not recreate the true colour characteristics of Kodachrome regardless of which other source medium you start from.

As you develop colour slide film, Fuji creates intentional inter layer effects in order to boost their film's colour saturation. Development and dye formation in one colour layer will repress development and dye formation in adjacent colour layers, and obviously this will differ between slide film product lines. As I mentioned before, you can't change colour saturation with optical filters.

Now finally, once these silver grains have been developed and image dyes have been formed, and let's assume through a magic wand you overcame all the previous differences, then you will discover differences in output spectrum because the image forming dyes differ between films. The characteristics of Vevia 50's dyes are shown in section 22, again on page 8 of this data sheet. While Velvia 50 uses very pure colours, there is still some density in wavelength regions that were not supposed to have density, especially in the region between 400 and 450 nm. This leads to the following effect: the dye created by its supposed wavelength attenuates not only in its own wavelength range, but in wavelength ranges which "belong" to other colour layers. Both cyan and magenta will mess with yellow's wavelength range, and like interlayer effects, this will show up as a non-uniform change in saturation, not correctable by optical filters.

For a short, clear and less technical answer: see PhotoEngineer's post #4 in this thread.
 
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Mustafa Umut Sarac
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Rudefous,

Aha ! how can you connect P and S relation to Leica lens color rendition ? Whats going on there ? If you answer that question 3x36 exposure films are yours :smile:

Thank you very much !
Umut
 

Rudeofus

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Every lens acts inadvertently as a weak colour filter, and because of lens flare it also somewhat reduces colour saturation and contrast. Both colour shift and lens flare are linear effects, however, lens flare is special in so far as an image region's rendering is influenced by other image regions, i.e. there is a spatial convolution, not just non-linear colour mapping like in my lengthy description above. I would assume that top notch glass like Leica and Zeiss maintains colour saturation and contrast more than cheaper, inferior lenses, which may contribute to their high regard. We should not ignore technical progress, though: cheap modern kit lenses may have less flare than ancient top notch glass.
 
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I think lens designer Nodda Duma opened a new window to me , he says it is only possible to manage wider pallette of colors or lets say wider range , more distance between red and blue ,only with more expensive glasses.

I was reading glass catalogs and military websites and there is immense difference between transfers of different , cheaper and more expensive glasses.

And I think anamolous glass in leica night be non linear or shift linearly stronger.

I think I never read why Leica colors are so classic , may be they shift some thing to blue , something to red.

Is it possible to replicate with filters but I dont have tools to analysis these shifts and may be it does require 6-7 filters or more to do that.

PM on the way Rudeofus :smile:

Thank you very much,
Umut
 

Rudeofus

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And I think anamolous glass in leica night be non linear or shift linearly stronger.

I think I never read why Leica colors are so classic , may be they shift some thing to blue , something to red.

I don't think that Leica has to pull any magic tricks, and shifting of light wavelength would most definitely count as magic. If you look at published data sheets for photographic lenses, you will see that most of them are far from perfect, so being less bad is already a giant leap forward.

In addition, Leica has a number of things which they can use to their advantage:
  • Mirrorless design: It is much, much easier for people to design excellent wide angle lenses if they don't have to account for a mirror between rear lens element and film. Therefore Leica, compared to their SLR heavy competition, had a huge advantage in the wide angle realm with their range finder lenses.
  • Leica customers prefer fixed focal lenses over zoom lenses, very much unlike other customers, at least for small format cameras. With all their extra lens elements, flare will be an issue even in zooms with multi coated lenses.
  • Cost is not an issue. Given the amount of money people are willing to pay for Leica glass gives them the budget to do it right. There is no cheesy but wildly predominant kit lens which forms the impression most people have of a camera system.
  • There are some excellent modern SLR lenses out there now, but due to the size, weight and form factor people tend to compare Leica M cameras to compact cameras, not high end SLR cameras.
 
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