Kodabromide F2 base color

[Thomas Bertilsson]

I came across about 150 sheets of this in grade 2 glossy, and thought I'd use them for proof sheets or something.
The base color is very light gray. Is that a sign of age, or was the paper really that color? It's very ugly.
- Thomas

 

[noseoil]

Thomas, this gray color wasn't the original base white. The paper ages and the base can be seen to be darker than the paper's back side. If you do a print and compare an unexposed edge of a developed sheet to the back of a new sheet, there will be quite a difference. Too bad because I like the bromide look for some things, but alas, it is gone now.

Nothing wrong with the paper for proofing, but it might give you fits if you were trying to use it for zone system testing! Best, tim

 

[Monophoto]

Sounds like fogging. This paper had a white base - I don't believe it had brighteners, but still it was white.

Although gray might be appropriate - Fred Picker used to refer to Kodabromide as the most boring paper made.

Kodabromide F2 - that's probably nearly as old as I am.

 

[Photo Engineer]

IIRC, Kodabromide had no brighteners, but may have had a slight pigment added to the baryta as a tint. This was done in some papers to provide a degree of 'warmth' to the print to offset the glaring white of the baryta.

This is to be distinguished from the warm tone papers that have a distinct warm tone in both the support and the silver image.

If Kodabromide had a pigment tint, it was not gray. Your problem is something else. If the gray is present only on processed sheets, then it is surely fog, but if it is on unprocessed but fixed sheets it may be mold or fungus.

PE

 

[panastasia]

Sounds like fogging. This paper had a white base - I don't believe it had brighteners, but still it was white.

Although gray might be appropriate - Fred Picker used to refer to Kodabromide as the most boring paper made.

Kodabromide F2 - that's probably nearly as old as I am.

Also referred to, by Picker and AA, as "Kodanoblack".

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

This paper is going in the trash bin. I made some prints with it after testing for fog (thanks for the distinction, PE), and the base had a gray color (processed in 130 developer diluted 1+1) and there were no real good blacks anywhere using negs that print very nicely on other G2 papers. I can see why Picker was unsatisfied.

Thank you for the feedback all of you!
- Thomas

 

[Peter Schrager]

kodabromide

I have a box of the same material grade 2 and it prints just fine. right about choosing subject matter but to say it has no black is hyperbole. just remember that Fred was busy hawking some of his own brand of paper. usually the problem is with the printer not the paper. if you are buying older papers just be aware of what you are getting-old paper!! there are bromides and benzotriazole to help relieve problems. thomas. did you try either before you throw it out?? I'm presently working through some issues with the 10 boxes of portiga that I have-but if I accomplish this they will certainly be wonderful prints. otherwise move on to a box of new paper.......
Best, Peter

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Well, I actually don't know the age of the paper. It came in the black plastic envelope wrapped in paper. Said the original box had been damaged or something. Got them for free, so no big deal.
Peter, thank you for the problem solving solutions, but I think I'll take your last advice and move on to a box of new paper. I don't have time to play around. Time is the last thing I have. If you want the paper for free I'll gladly send it to you for postage only. There should be about 148 sheets left...
- Thomas

 

[Peter Schrager]

paper

Thomas-thanks for the offer. I surmise that your paper is definately fogged whereas mine is not. I too am moving on. using up my boxes of grade three forte semi-matte paper. hopefully someone like fotohuis will pick up on these older type formulations. I found it to be the one and only true warmtone graded paper that was in the marketplace....although Ilford gallerie graded is slightly warmtoned (I think)
Best, Peter

 

[panastasia]

I have a box of the same material grade 2 and it prints just fine. right about choosing subject matter but to say it has no black is hyperbole. just remember that Fred was busy hawking some of his own brand of paper. usually the problem is with the printer not the paper. if you are buying older papers just be aware of what you are getting-old paper!! there are bromides and benzotriazole to help relieve problems. thomas. did you try either before you throw it out?? I'm presently working through some issues with the 10 boxes of portiga that I have-but if I accomplish this they will certainly be wonderful prints. otherwise move on to a box of new paper.......
Best, Peter

In the late 70's, if I remember the time right, the price of silver went through the roof and may have prompted some manufacturers to skimp on emulsion silver content rather than raise prices (I can remember some price increases, but nothing substantial) which would explain some of the disappointing materials of that period and into the 80's at least - most notably, photo paper.

Adding brighteners was also a move to compensate for a lack of a full dynamic range. I cannot substantiate any of this, but the possibility is conceivable.

 

[Photo Engineer]

This assumption was false. The papers contained all the silver required. The problem in some degree was due to the elimination of cadmium and mercury which lowered contrast a bit until newer methods were devised. Another culprit was the new hardener which did not allow for the best silver coverage (density) in Dmax regions.

More importantly was the introduction of RC.

PE

 

[Photo Engineer]

I should add, that at the time the Hunts were causing silver prices to skyrocket, the amount of silver used in B&W paper was a tiny fraction of the amount used in color paper. The only major effort to reduce silver was in color paper products.

PE

 

[zone v]

It does appear that it was fogged, noting what you said about it having no box. I have some Ilford MG IV that I believe is fogged also. I'm beating my head against the box, too. Everything I print has a gray cast to it. Even a Kodak Anti Fog tablet doesn't help it. I remember Kodabromide in the '60s and 70's, it was definitely white. And silver did hit a high way back then and the manufacturers were cutting back on it. Hence, not great papers anymore.

 

[Photo Engineer]

It does appear that it was fogged, noting what you said about it having no box. I have some Ilford MG IV that I believe is fogged also. I'm beating my head against the box, too. Everything I print has a gray cast to it. Even a Kodak Anti Fog tablet doesn't help it. I remember Kodabromide in the '60s and 70's, it was definitely white. And silver did hit a high way back then and the manufacturers were cutting back on it. Hence, not great papers anymore.

Patrick;

I worked on papers at the time. There was a great effort in the following:

1. Eliminate Cadmium and Mercury
2. Put in the new hardener
3. Coat faster
4. Reduce silver

And lots and lots of other things. The silver in paper was not reduced significantly at that time. Papers still achieved a dmax of 2.0 + which is the highest they can go due to the physical properties associated. See my comments elsewhere on APUG about the myth of silver rich papers.

As for your problem, I would say that somehow you appear to have a lot of fogged paper. Do you use ammonia, thiourea or powdered hypo in your lab? Are there any unusual chemicals in use?

Many chemicals can fog paper and film. Even some 'safe' fluorescent lights can fog papers.

PE

 

[panastasia]

The silver in paper was not reduced significantly at that time.... PE

PE,

You seem to have some knowledge of silver reduction, based on your statement.

Did this happen after the Hunt brothers caused the price of silver to rise? They ended up dumping a huge amount of silver causing the price to drop shortly after. I remember that the price ended up about double what it originated at, therefore, I suspect there might be a correlation.

Regards,
Paul

 

[zone v]

In response to Photo Engineer, I am not using any of the chemicals you mention in your post. I basically use Dektol or Bromophen for paper developers, Indicator stop and Kodafix or Kodak Fixer. Nothing unusual here. Though the MG IV is the only box I'm having trouble with. All of my other papers are OK. Thats why I suspect a bad box of MG IV.

Paul - The only knowledge I have of silver reduction is that no matter how much they reduce it, I still can't afford it! LOL.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Patrick;

The chemicals that I mentioned were in the paper to control its curve shape, speed and dmax. They were eliminated by Kodak in the 60s and 70s to provide for a safer, less toxic environment. They did not change the quality of blacks nor did they result in any significant change in coated silver level as claimed above.

Paul;

The work on silver reduction was done in film and paper, both B&W and color. All film efforts failed, of course due to increasing grain among other things. In paper, there was no adverse affect due to a small reduction in either B&W or color, but in color we achieved an even greater effect by other means than available to B&W.

The work began when the price of silver began to skyrocket, and was cancelled by order of the CEO when the price began to drop. All of our projects were cancelled at that time.

So, as a result, none of the products with reduced silver went out the door AFAIK, but products with new chemicals in them did. And effect on dmax or blacks was tiny if there was any effect at all.

Again, see my myth of silver rich products in the emulsion making and coating forum. The dmax of any product is based on the efficiency of the silver halide in being developed, not on how much is coated.

PE

 

[panastasia]

Paul;

The work on silver reduction was done in film and paper, both B&W and color. All film efforts failed, of course due to increasing grain among other things. In paper, there was no adverse affect due to a small reduction in either B&W or color, but in color we achieved an even greater effect by other means than available to B&W.

The work began when the price of silver began to skyrocket, and was cancelled by order of the CEO when the price began to drop. All of our projects were cancelled at that time.

So, as a result, none of the products with reduced silver went out the door AFAIK, but products with new chemicals in them did. And effect on dmax or blacks was tiny if there was any effect at all.

Again, see my myth of silver rich products in the emulsion making and coating forum. The dmax of any product is based on the efficiency of the silver halide in being developed, not on how much is coated.

PE

PE,

Thanks for the insight.
I was a heavy user of Kodak materials in the 70's & 80's and still prefer the look of TRI-X & Plus-X film. I miss the Ektalure G paper tone and have tried to duplicate it with other brands with little success. I came close to a match using Forte paper and a developer that included Glycin. Still trying.

I'll look for: "myth of silver rich products". Thanks.

Regards,
Paul