KISS LF Film recommendations solicited

I think I foolishly miss titled this thread and like some journeys got on the road headed in one direction to find that where I want to go is better gotten to on a different road.

John Kasaian said:

IMHO, You'll get more milage from cheap film and common off the shelf chemicals.

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Yes, I do see your, and others point. But, let me try to explain where I'm coming from, and maybe where I'm going.

Like any art there are a variety of tools and perhaps more importantly, a variety of mediums though which to express yourself; I look at photography in much the same way. While is might have some utility to learn water color painting before launching into oils they really are not the same thing. I think it's easy to get hung up on looking at photography as somewhat all the same because the end product seems so similar. But it really isn't is it?

The point of my quest here is to settle on the kit of tools I am going to use to produce what I'm looking to express. I'm sure many who are following this thread are saying to themselves "jesus why doesn't this guy just get out there and start shooting!" Maybe that method has some utility, but like water color to oils, I don't feel it's the path for me.

The way I like to look at it is as a whole package; camera, lenses, film, development, printing, a process from A to B united as one. Maybe its that it suits my temperament or my view of the world; I like to see things in their entirety, little worlds with in my personal solar syatem if you will.

So yes it turns out that I titled this thread somewhat differently than I might have, but isn't that one of the purposes of a place like APUG? A get together of practicioners where we talk about what's important to each of us and perhaps in listening to others find out where we really want to go is not where we were headed when we began the conversation.

-Bob

I think John is saying you need to learn which end of the paint brush to hold before worrying about what goes on the brush.

While I don't disagree with you that it's a whole package what are you going to do when your favorite film/paper is no longer out there? It'll happen.

Nick Zentena said:

While I don't disagree with you that it's a whole package what are you going to do when your favorite film/paper is no longer out there? It'll happen.

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What will anybody do? That's like asking what will I do tomorrow;I plan on getting up and going to work, but, that may change for any number of reasons. Tomorrow will happen I'll deal with it when I get there. I don't go through life being afraid of what the future will bring.

As far as holding the paint brush goes, I dunno if you meant it that way, but it is a bit insulting. I'm 51 years old, picked up a camera at about age 10, went in the darkroom in high school and have held a paintbrush for quite some time. If you're just continuing my analogy then it still holds that totally different paint brushes are used from one medium to another. (not to mention any fool can see which is the business end of a paint brush )

Many on this thread responded quite the opposite and pointed out that I should choose a process that suits the result I want and master it, doesn't mater which process, just master it. That's what I intend to do.

-Bob

Ah, jdef has proved my point. His way is the only way. That feeling is held by many pyro users. It's also held by many who worship at the feet of Michael Smith. Pyro, Azo and Amidol. Use anything else and your work is rank. Mr. Smith has said that Mr. Adams made "Crappy" enlargements. Seems to me someone is extremely jealous of anothers sucess.

"The advantages of a staining developer cannot be overstated". Well I think it just has been overstated. Since I have little substance and no credence no one should be offended by my view that there's a place in the photo world for simple standard developers.

I see that laz127 lives somewhere within about a hundred miles of me. Contact me with a PM and if we could get together I would show you Pt/Pd prints with D-76. Or silver enlargements or Azo contacts. Maybe the trip to Sandy Hook N.J. will come off as well as the trip to Asbury Park did. Laz, follow the NY regional section to meet up with other tri-state L/F photographers. There is nothing wrong with using pyro if that's your way of working. But it is not the one true religon.

Hi: I had trouble with JC100. The first couple of packs I bought seemed fine, and I had no trouble with testing. Then the next couple of packs just didn't seem to expose well. I couldn't get any shadow detail. I didn't change anything, not my meter or working methods or my development, and I don't know what happened.
The last of my TMX and TMY worked fine, but I'm dropping them because of the expense.
Now I'm using JandC 400. No trouble with testing, and none with exposure. I'm doing e.i. 200, 7 min at 70 degrees in HC110 at 1/2 of dil. E (can't think of a better way to describe it). Now I'm getting back to nice negs with an affordable film. Couldn't be happier.
Welcome to 8X10. I'm having great luck contacting onto Adox, again from JandC Photography; I even started a thread on this. Dean

A brief comment on staining developers:

It is often said that these can produce negatives suitable for both alternative processes and silver gelatin prints.

This is of course true - as it is true of any other developer. The needed scale for a grade 4 silver enlarging paper and a silver gelatin POP paper may well be the far extremes in terms of tonal scale. All alternative processes I know of need negatives somewhere inbetween those two.

The stain masks UV efficiently, thus increasing the contrast for contact printing. Unfortunately it also blocks a large part of the blue, so that VC papers give very flat results (or ridiculous exposures with hard filter), while graded paper in general doesn't come in soft enough gradations to make a decent print.

I often use staining developers, but now only when I'm certain I won't wish to enlarge that particular negative (perhaps because it's a duplicate and #1 has already been developed).

laz127 said:

What will anybody do? That's like asking what will I do tomorrow;I plan on getting up and going to work, but, that may change for any number of reasons. Tomorrow will happen I'll deal with it when I get there. I don't go through life being afraid of what the future will bring.

As far as holding the paint brush goes, I dunno if you meant it that way, but it is a bit insulting. I'm 51 years old, picked up a camera at about age 10, went in the darkroom in high school and have held a paintbrush for quite some time. If you're just continuing my analogy then it still holds that totally different paint brushes are used from one medium to another. (not to mention any fool can see which is the business end of a paint brush )

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Not meant to be insulting. Sorry if it came across that way. Just that LF has it's own learning curve. Simpler to start with lots of pratice then to try and define yourself at the start.

Better to be taking photos and finding out "Damn I don't like this". Best way to find out what you like. OTOH I believe making mistakes is a good thing.

Nick Zentena said:

Not meant to be insulting. Sorry if it came across that way. Just that LF has it's own learning curve. Simpler to start with lots of pratice then to try and define yourself at the start.

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Thanks for the gracious reply Nick, so hard to read tone on the 'net isn't it! Maybe it was also the atmosphere of contention that has developed (pun intended) here between the pyros and the non-pyros. Come on guys, play nice!

Without entering the fray let me try once again to explain my philosophy and approach to photography (or anything for that matter) I don't think there is anything to fear about setting out to be a particular type of photographer or adopt a complex process as how I want to start and maybe even finish.

I came to LF out of a natural progression of my path in photography; it's theme has been one of progressively slowing down. What I want out of LF is the pleasure of choosing what piece of the landscape I want to capture and slowly, ever so slowly, considering how to do it. And what of developing and printing? I take great pleasure in complex tasks; I love the challenge, the attention to detail, and yes, even the risk of failure.

Maybe this is not the way some if not many APUGers choose to approach photography, but it's my way, that is not going to change I assure you.

I see that laz127 lives somewhere within about a hundred miles of me. Contact me with a PM and if we could get together I would show you Pt/Pd prints with D-76. Or silver enlargements or Azo contacts. Maybe the trip to Sandy Hook N.J. will come off as well as the trip to Asbury Park did. Laz, follow the NY regional section to meet up with other tri-state L/F photographers.

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Photobum, Thanks for the invite, I certainly will follow the regional section! BTW, I know Sandy Hook very well. Have you been in the holly forest? That is something that should not be missed! Like the bunkers, it is a restricted access area, but I have a few "connections." (really no mystery, my beloved wife is a past president of the America Littoral Society which has it's headquarters in one of those beautiful old houses. (come to think of it, she is currently the director of the NJ Meadowlands Environmental Center and that is a fascinating environment ripe with photographic opportunities!))

Bet you've guessed we're probably less than 100 miles apart!

-Bob

Why I like D-76 for keeping it simple.

HEALTH:

While I would leave it to learned toxicologists to debate the issue of Hydroquinone-Phenol vs. Pyrogallol and their corresponding LD levels. (Lethal Dose) Laz127 is buying Mr. Hutchings' Book of Pyro so I will direct him to page 60. Toxicity: "Pyro may be the most toxic chemical used in the darkroom. The combination of toxicity and the ease of bodily absorption demands careful handling of the chemical. It is not a matter on individual sensitivity." He goes on to say: "Once in the body pyro acts in several ways. It effects all internal organs, particularly the kidneys. By reducing the oxygen carrying capacity of the blood it causes methemoglobinemia."

Now only Laz127 knows his working conditions. Does he have a separate darkroom that is very well ventilated? Outfitted with gloves, dust mask and vent hood? Or is he in the kitchen? Will his wife like the red PMK stains all over her counter? Are the kids going to be upset when the dog licks up those tasty red stains and dies?

COST and AVAILABILITY:

Granted, pyro is quite inexpensive to work with. So is D-76. Used 1+1 a $6.00 bag will process 128 4x5 films in BTZS tubes. Now how many suppliers in the U.S. carry PMK, Pyrocat, ABC, WD2d etc? A dozen? Any mom and pop photo store that still has darkroom equipment has D-76.

If you come back from a trip with a lot of film to process deep tanks with D-76 is the way to go. Drop the hangers in a dozen at a time, all done? Come back tomorrow, use the replenisher if needed and dip and dunk. Also, no worry about scratching your soft emulsion film. No scratching in BTZS tubes either.

EASE OF USE:

D-76 as well as ID-11 etc. are well known for their forgiving nature for errors in time and temperature. No, not just sloppy lab work but living conditions as well. Are you living in Florida in the summer? Is the darkroom in your garage in the summer? Then it's hard to hold 68 or 70 degrees all day. Same thing in the winter. Once again only Laz knows his working conditions, therefore his request to keep it simple. D-76 has long been recognized as the standard by which all other developers are compared. Is it the best at any one thing? Probably not. But it does do all things well. Most photographers today that still use a wet darkroom enlarge. They tend to use VC instead of graded papers. A staining developer makes enlarging on VC difficult compared to a clear negative of D-76. You can still make very nice contact prints or Pt/Pd prints with an unstained negative. Now it's been almost forty years since I was in photo school but any school that I know of starts off using D-76 in the gang darkroom. Why is that?

I could go on but the thread asked about keeping it simple. Not using the softest emulsion film or dangerous developer. So go ahead and have the last word.

Boy does this Pyro subject raise hackles or what!

Before there are too many voices are raised in concern for my health (or my wife's, child, doggies; maybe the entire neighborhood!)

photobum said:

Does he have a separate darkroom that is very well ventilated? Outfitted with gloves, dust mask and vent hood? ..... Are you living in Florida in the summer? Is the darkroom in your garage in the summer? Then it's hard to hold 68 or 70 degrees all day. Same thing in the winter.

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My darkroom does one better. It's in an unattached former small barn. Gots me heat and A/C. No, I don't have a fume hood, but I have very good ventaliation.

when the dog licks up those tasty red stains and dies?

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My dogs have never seen the inside of my darkroom and I suspect they're too dumb to figure out how to open the two doors (a very lovable dumb, no dog lover flames please!)

Now how many suppliers in the U.S. carry PMK, Pyrocat, ABC, WD2d etc?

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I work in NYC, I dare say I can find a place or 2 selling it

Most photographers today that still use a wet darkroom enlarge.

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Must I sell my D2 or can I put it in a blind trust? Contact printing.

Now it's been almost forty years since I was in photo school but any school that I know of starts off using D-76 in the gang darkroom. Why is that?

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Good question! I'll ask my photo major son about what is used and why, and perhaps I can get answer for my $150,000 investment.

If anyone has the last word it will be me when I announce my decision (CNN will carry the story I'm sure)

Remember now, play nice!

photobum said:

Why I like D-76 for keeping it simple.

HEALTH:............

SNIP
..............
I could go on but the thread asked about keeping it simple. Not using the softest emulsion film or dangerous developer. So go ahead and have the last word.

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The relative toxicity can (and will) be debated, but the dangers of Pyro are wildly overstated - at least compared to the far more common dangers of Metol. Developers shouldn't be drunk, nor should powder be inhaled. Contact dermatitis can be painful, especially in the nose.

D-76 is a good developer, but it's not great at anything. Nor does it suck at anything, that's what makes it a good allround developer.

The advantages of D-76 can also be overstated.

photobum said:

Why I like D-76 for keeping it simple.

Now it's been almost forty years since I was in photo school but any school that I know of starts off using D-76 in the gang darkroom. Why is that?

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Well, inertia is one reason. When I started teaching darkroom photography, the school darkroom was already equipped with massive amounts of D-76, Dektol, Kodak Acid Fixer and Glacial Acetic Acid. Nothing wrong with that, especially when you are learning the basics of darkroom work.

BTW, which of the chemicals I listed would you LEAST like to drink - or put your hands in? I think you would likely choose the Glacial Acetic Acid. Substitute PMK or Pyrocat for the D-76 and I'd still choose the acid.

Still unsure? Check out the WHO (World Health Organization) on the relative toxicity of these chemicals. BTW, both D-76 and Dektol contain Hydroquinone and Metol.

Tom Hoskinson said:

BTW, which of the chemicals I listed would you LEAST like to drink - or put your hands in? I think you would likely choose the Glacial Acetic Acid.

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But mixed with a little 30 weight motor oil it makes a great salad dressing!

Stick with good old Velvia and E-6 processing and you guys wouldn't be having these problems.

Hi Bob. I'll throw in. Been using Pyro all my life an I ain't dead yet. I buy the Efke 100 in long rolls. 10" wide by 100 ft.long. Chop at 8" and load. Develop in PcatHD 2:2:100. Don't buy any of the pre-mixed kits. Get an O-Hous scale and mix the stuff yourself. I've had 100% success doing that. Printing stuff today I did with an ancient Velostigmat Series II and an even more ancient Series A f5 Petzval. All this baloney may only be KISS to me though.

jimgalli said:

Hi Bob. I'll throw in. Been using Pyro all my life an I ain't dead yet.

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How do you know?

I think it was a page or 2 ago when I said it, but I announced that I'd ordered The Book of Pyro

You'd think these guys would take the hint!

-Bob

As promised I asked my son who is in his senior year in the photography program at Drexel U. what developer they used for his beginning course work in B&W he said Xtol! To be fair I'll also tell that when I asked him if he ever used Pyro he said what's that?

Heh. _The Book of Pyro_ is a good resource, but it's mainly focused on the PMK formula. If your main interest is a dual-use formula for silver and alt-processes, Pyrocat-HD seems to have many adherents for that specific purpose. There are some good articles on various pyro and other formulas at unblinkingeye.com. You might also look at Anchell and Troop's _Film Developing Cookbook_, Anchell's _Darkroom Cookbook_, and if you're more interepid and can find a copy and aren't frightened off by the price tag, Grant Haist's _Modern Photographic Processing_.

Or if you're just looking for a KISS film/developer combo, go for Tri-X and D-76 (1+1).

David A. Goldfarb said:

There are some good articles on various pyro and other formulas at unblinkingeye.com. You might also look at Anchell and Troop's _Film Developing Cookbook_, Anchell's _Darkroom Cookbook_, and if you're more interepid and can find a copy and aren't frightened off by the price tag, Grant Haist's _Modern Photographic Processing_.

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Thanks David, I have found the unblinkingeye site and really enjoy the articles. I'll check out the cookbooks. But, you're right the Haist is a bit rich for my blood, a "print to order" reprint can be had for just $295!
-Bob

Its me again! The issue belies the question, what do you consider simple? The second "S" in KISS?

IMHO the 'direct' route is far simpler than futzing about with 'other' processes when what you want is, say staining pyro or amidol blacks for your negatives. If that is your goal then of course take the simplest (Simple #1) most direct route. A no-brainer. What ever trial and error you experience will have a direct bearing on your education and enjoyment.

If you don't have such a goal, but are testing the waters so to speak, then "simple" #2 in my mind is starting out with what is easily available and 'bullet proof'---stuff you probably already have experience with...the stuff in the yellow envelopes.

Simple #3 is using what you enjoy and find predictable to work with---the emulsions you've used because its what 'works' for you(and that could be anything your experience deems it to be)

If you just got your camera and haven't made any prints or negs yet, Simple #3 isn't even in the ballpark.

Simple #2 is about getting comfortable with shooting your camera and not having to choose from a menu of potions and brews. It does simplify matters.

If you already know you want to do a unique process, address your question to those who are experienced in the process---they can generously offer you some short cuts, simplifying the journey. Thats Simple #1.

Is this the end of the story? No! Chances are whatever you decide on will eventually either be discontinued or banned for safety reasons and you'll have to start over again.

Then again, maybe the "Simple" way is just going out, taking pictures, and having fun with whatever you have on hand.

Cheers!

jimgalli said:

Hi Bob. I'll throw in. Been using Pyro all my life an I ain't dead yet.

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laz127 said:

How do you know?

-Bob

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You make a good point Bob. Let's see, I am in Tonopah Nevada. Hmmmm. Maybe...........no.......but.....No, if this was hell I'd have nothing but digital and PhotoShop. Can't be hell. I know there's no PcatHD in Hell! But..........dammit, now you've got me thinking.........

jimgalli said:

You make a good point Bob. Let's see, I am in Tonopah Nevada. Hmmmm. Maybe...........no.......but.....No, if this was hell I'd have nothing but digital and PhotoShop. Can't be hell. I know there's no PcatHD in Hell! But..........dammit, now you've got me thinking.........

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Well, Jim --- you could forced to use Velvia!!! You know, the film that still has all the colors after you develop it; kind of like nature.

John Kasaian said:

Its me again! The issue belies the question, what do you consider simple? The second "S" in KISS?

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If you already know you want to do a unique process, address your question to those who are experienced in the process---they can generously offer you some short cuts, simplifying the journey.

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Hi again John welcome back to my ever growing thread.

Way back on page 2 Jay (jdef) answered my question this way:

On then other hand, if you are going to be a one-developer guy, it makes sense to start with a developer that will remain available, and satisfy all of your foreseeable needs, which, to me, means a developer you can make up yourself, from bulk chemicals. Since you're shooting 8x10, there is a real possibility that you might consider printing with a UV process, like Platinum/Palladium, Kallitype, POP, etc., in which case, the advantages of a staining developer are fairly well documented. I don't see the logic in intentionally using one developer in the begining, and switching later.

I won't go back and quote myself, but basically I said that his advice had resonance with me because: 1) starting with a developer that will meet my needs for a long time and would remain available made the most sense to me and 2) staining developers have advantages in printing with UV processes which I stated was exactly where I wanted to go

And then the fun began; the pyro fight was lit, and this thread became mostly a question of staining developers vs. others.

Evidently lost somewhere in the middle of the fight was my decision, I had the answer to my question: Keeping it simple for me meant exactly what Jay had suggested. I chose Pyro as my "one developer" for it's staining properties, it simply made sense to me

The battle of Pyro continued here, I saw nothing wrong with that; an open mind is a good thing. I learned a great deal about this fight over pyro. Maybe it went on too long, I don't know, I continued to get good suggestions, I continued to learn.

Maybe some don't think Pyro is simple but as is sometimes the case, one man's simple is an other's complex.

So, I do thank you and everyone else who responded. Yes I'll take specific questions about Pyro to the appropiate thread when my order comes from ArtCraft and my Book of Pyro comes from Amazon. Maybe this thread will continue to debate KISS and Pyro; threads do take on a life of their own.

-Bob

laz127 said:

And then the fun began; the pyro fight was lit, and this thread became mostly a question of staining developers vs. others.

Evidently lost somewhere in the middle of the fight was my decision, I had the answer to my question: Keeping it simple for me meant exactly what Jay had suggested. I chose Pyro as my "one developer" for it's staining properties, it simply made sense to me

The battle of Pyro continued here, I saw nothing wrong with that; an open mind is a good thing. I learned a great deal about this fight over pyro. Maybe it went on too long, I don't know, I continued to get good suggestions, I continued to learn.

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So what would you expect, when you let the Pyromaniacs loose in the thread?

As I see it, this was merely a friendly exchange of opinions. I even managed to exchange some of my own.

For a real fight, you need both Pyro-maniacs and digi-heads

P vs M-Q is definitely a more interesting fight than A vs D.