Kiev 4 series frame spacing

[Donald Qualls]

I've got a Kiev 4M and I really enjoy it -- much lighter and more compact than an SLR, yet the versatility of interchangeable lenses (and without the price of a genuine Contax, Leica, Nikon, or Canon RF -- I've got less than $200 into the kit so far, including 35mm and 135mm lenses, accessory viewfinder, and filter set for the 50mm).

The only problem I've found in the first two rolls is that it sometimes overlaps frames. Not much -- a millimeter or so, instead of 3mm between frames as it should be, Still usable, I can easily crop off the overlap, but it's annoying and makes it hard to cut the negatives into strips for storage.

I've looked at the overview of Kiev film advance, and apparently there's a spring that needs adjusting for tension (and quite likely some gears that need cleaning). The spring apparently determines whether the spool is pulling the film past the sprocket, or the sprocket is pushing the film onto the spool. I've made repairs about this complex in the past (removing, cleaning, and reassembling shutter leaves in a Compur, for instance) -- but the question is, does the spring the site author mentions need to be tightened, or loosened? Too much pull has the obvious risk of tearing up the sprocket holes on the film. Too little gives the frame overlap, I guess. Right?

 

[mohmad khatab]

Congratulations
I hope you enjoy using this amazing camera.
One of my friends had this model and it really had the same problem.
- Yes, he went with that camera to the maintenance technician, and the technician cleaned and adjusted the gears, and actually started working in a standard way.
You need a maintenance technician with good experience.
These cameras are easy-to-hold, simple mechanical design, but at the same time they need someone to know.
One day, I tried to disassemble and lubricate the Zenit 212 camera gear set. Easy to disassemble and iron the gear. It was easy, but when I tried to install the parts, I realized that I was drowning in a deep sea.
- I collected everything in a box, went to a camera maintenance technician and installed everything within 10 minutes.
- I wish you success .

 

[Donald Qualls]

Well, I was going to just send my Kiev 4M off to Zack's and let him work his magic. Unfortunately, when I inquired, I got a (very prompt!) reply that he does not work on Russian or East German cameras.

Can anyone recommend another worker in CONUS who can clean and relube the advance gears in my (otherwise, perfectly working) camera, ideally without charging an arm and a leg? I don't want to just play camera roulette, keep ordering Kiev RFs until I get one that has all three of accurate shutter, accurate/clean/bright rangefinder, and reliable frame spacing. Not least because that last quality can only be tested by shooting and processing at least one roll of film.

I've done some fairly involved repairs -- fixed a Petri 7s that wasn't cocking after advance, cleaned shutter and repaired damaged focusing threads on a Kodak Reflex II, including realigning the focus of the two lenses. My first camera repair was to (temporarily) correct a shutter that was not quite fully closing on an Exa II. Never had one I couldn't get back togther -- but I don't have a good work space at present, especially not one where I could leave a camera from one day to the next if I can't get it all the way back together the first day. Based on the Kiev Survival Site, it looks like there's a lot of stuff to clean in just the advance/cocking/speed control set.

 

[gorbas]

A few years ago I send my Kiev to one of NY original USSR cam technicians for full CLA. He did great job of but frame spacing was all over but without overlapping. So I phoned him to complain and he asked me "is it overlapping"? "No, but spacing between frames is big and sometimes very big", "So, No overlapping"? "No", "So, What do you want"?? And then I give up to have proper spacing on Kiev. Spacing on my Kiev is from 1mm up to maybe 15mm between frames.

 

[Donald Qualls]

Spacing on my Kiev is from 1mm up to maybe 15mm between frames.

Spacing on mine is running from about -2mm to 5mm. I'd like to get rid of the -2 end.

 

[gorbas]

Overlapping sucks, I agree!

 

[Donald Qualls]

Last night, after posting above, I was browsing eBay, looking at Kiev RF cameras -- I recall reading that one run (the last one?) of Kiev 4 bodies was so bad they were scrapped direct from the factory floor (in the Soviet Union!) -- which leads me to ask if the earlier models, Kiev 3 and Kiev 2 (which followed the Contax numbering, 2 was no meter, 3 had the meter) are less prone to these problems? They're less common, but still available on eBay at reasonable prices. Or does their greater age (early 1960s and older, back to late 1940s) make them more prone to trouble due to grease aging in the advance gears?

 

[gorbas]

Hi Donald, That theory is one I heard before, that older Kievs are better. Mine is made in '62 the same year as me. Classic Kiev. I miss one nice chance to buy very early Kiev but...So far I'm happy with mine, frame spacing is just character of it as long as there is no overlapping. Lenses are great! For roll or two a year, I'm fine with it, it's not my main camera.
Maybe some of our russian friends here can chime in, I heard that Kev was one of the most expensive thing you could buy in USSR. It was super expensive for average worker and cost was much more than Fed's or Zorki's.

 

[Donald Qualls]

No question, the Kiev was a Contax II/III made with "stolen" factory in Ukraine -- and even Communism couldnt' make a Contax inexpensive. Lots of intricate machining and skilled labor time went into one.

If I can't find someone who can at least eliminate the overlap in this one, I'll probably go ahead and order a Kiev 2 (older non-meter version) before I try to open this one up myself. Much like the original Contax -- after using it a bit (just nearing the end of the my third roll), it's quickly becoming my main every-day camera.

 

[gorbas]

Sorry, Donald "stolen" is totaly wrong here. That factory was paid by 20+ million lives of USSR citizens. That factory was part of war reparations.

 

[Donald Qualls]

Hence why I put it in quotes. There's a school of thought that considers war reparations theft of the form: "I'm taking your ability to rebuild, because I can." It's a form of punishing the peasants for having the wrong king.

Regardless of that, the Contax design was never going to be cheap or easy to produce, hence the revisions to the design that became the Kiev 4A and 4M

 

[Dali]

Did you contact Mark Hansen?

 

[Donald Qualls]

Did you contact Mark Hansen?

No, because I didn't know I should. Is he a member here?

 

[Patrick Robert James]

Donald, I have a box of Kiev parts with maybe three or four bodies in it. I picked it up many years ago for reasons I don't even know anymore, but it is just sitting here. I'd be happy to send it your way for a paltry sum....

I think Fedka does repairs on FSU stuff.

 

[John Will]

No, because I didn't know I should. Is he a member here?

Mark Hansen ( http://www.zeissikonrolleirepair.com/ ) although he specifically says on his web site he only works on Contax IIa and IIIa not Contax I, II or III cameras, so I would doubt he would look at a Kiev.

He did a great job on my Contax IIa, a complete strip down and rebuild including making a couple of new parts.

 

[Donald Qualls]

Okay, he doesn't specifically say he won't work on preWar Contax or Kiev 2/3/4 cameras, so I emailed and asked. Of course, I'd have to buy another body before sending this one to him; his web page shows him at four to five and a half months lead time on repairs, and after using this Kiev for a month, I wouldn't want to be without an interchangeable lens RF for that long (and I used to be such an SLR guy).

 

[titrisol]

I just got one to test some old lenses my mom found
Yes, in my 1st roll it overlaps the last frames like crazy. Initial spacing seems tobe 5-7mm but overlap at the end (frames 30-) is horrible
So for me I will roll 24-27 frames rolls and that should work fine.

Learncamerarepair has some Soviet repair books translated to English
https://learncamerarepair.com/productlist.php?category=2&secondary=24

The design seems to be straightforward and the fact that these work is a tribute to the Contax engineers of the 1930s

 

[Donald Qualls]

@titrisol I've now got two Kiev 4 (the one I originally posted this thread about, and another that has good spacing but a slow shutter) and a Contax II (pre-War, to ensure compatibility with my Jupiter-12 lenses). which has such a slow shutter I haven't even tried to load film in it.

And no time or space to do the work on them myself, not to mention my fingers aren't as clever as they were when I took apart an Exa II in 1974. I've had a couple references, and I'm strongly leaning toward sending the Kievs, at least, to Oleg in Ukraine, one at a time. The Contax has been retrofitted with a flash sync, so likely will go to Oleg eventually as well (Contax purists likely won't touch it, even if I had that kind of money and thought they'd live forever). Just need Round Tuits and money...

 

[titrisol]

WHen you say Oleg in Ukraine, who is that?
I'm new to Kievs, and they are interesting.

 

[Donald Qualls]

I'm referring to Oleg Kalyavin. He's a well spoken of camera repairer who has access to Kiev made Contax clone parts (or parts cameras), among other stuff.