KENTMERE Range Update : From HARMAN

Ian Grant · Mar 17, 2009

Perhaps a point that's been missed was that Freestyle were once the importers of Kentmere, the Kentmere US website belonged to them not Kentmere. In fact Kentmere UK had no input into it, Kentmere.com now points to Kentmere.co.uk.

Simon Galley in the first post of this thread indicates that Wynit is now the distributor for Ilford/Harman Technology and Kentmere, that also includes and Paterson products.

The more Ilford can manufacture the healthier the company, in the current economic climate we all need Ilford to remain buoyant.

Ian

PHOTOTONE · Mar 17, 2009

Ian Grant said:
Perhaps a point that's been missed was that Freestyle were once the importers of Kentmere, the Kentmere US website belonged to them not Kentmere. In fact Kentmere UK had no input into it, Kentmere.com now points to Kentmere.co.uk.

Ian

Yes, I understand that. HOWEVER, Freestyle told me over the telephone yesterday that they will continue to offer all the Kentmere (branded) paper and film products available in the future. So, it is not Freestyle that is "getting out" of the Kentmere sales market. But their list of "clearance" Kentmere product is huge. Just check it out, see link in previous post of mine.

Markus Röhling · Mar 17, 2009

PHOTOTONE said:
Yes, Fuji Rembrandt, and Fuji Gaslight Contact paper are still shown.

Unfortunately the Gaslight paper is not sold in Germany as fas as I know.

But I think the point is that these are very small operators, compared to the giants that Kodak and Agfa Germany used to be. Well, Fuji is a giant.

I don't mind if a operator is a giant or not. I just want paper I like.

Markus

eclarke · Mar 17, 2009

Just how much POP was Kentmere selling? It could be an astoundingly small amount..EC

Ian Grant · Mar 17, 2009

PHOTOTONE said:
Yes, I understand that. HOWEVER, Freestyle told me over the telephone yesterday that they will continue to offer all the Kentmere (branded) paper and film products available in the future. So, it is not Freestyle that is "getting out" of the Kentmere sales market. But their list of "clearance" Kentmere product is huge. Just check it out, see link in previous post of mine.

You could just be reading far to much into that, the list isn't that big as there are many size & contrast variation.. If Freestyle are no longer the distributor they may well need to clear their shelves of surplus stock. They are also selling off Fotospeed & Foma on the first page.

And a passing thought, those clearance prices are probably more than they would have sold the same items for as the distributor to another Photo-dealer

Ian

Sal Santamaura · Mar 17, 2009

Bruce Osgood said:
ILFORD Photo/HARMAN technology Limited is a business, not unlike Microsoft.

A business, yes, but verrrryyyy unlike Microsoft!

railwayman3 · Mar 17, 2009

PHOTOTONE said:
Hold on just a moment. Fuji have not exited b/w papers, they still make some, they are just not available in the USA. Agfa/Gevaert still makes RC b/w papers for their aerial photography market, and some have been repackaged for consumers by third parties. It is only Agfa in Germany that went away. There is no doubt that Harmon is the biggest player left in b/w papers, though.

OK, I stand corrected, But I've never seen Fuji B&W paper in the UK, and was thinking of the vast range of papers which Agfa used to produce in Leverkusen (with Gevaert in Belgium)...lovely fibre-based products, certainly different to repacked RC aerial papers?

And I hadn't forgotten the smaller manufacturers which Markus mentions....Foma, Efke, Slavitch and Oriental. and the own-brands...all interesting products, but their availability is limited and depends, in the UK at least, on the support of one-or-two specialist mail order dealers. A long way from the time I could walk into my local dealers and find books of samples of paper surfaces, etc.,with a good choice of Kodak, Ilford and Agfa papers in stock, and anything more obscure on next-day order.

I don't think it alters my basic premise of the fragility of the B&W market now or in the future.

Uncle Bill · Mar 17, 2009

Thank you for the update Simon and the reasoning why some products had to be discontinued. I look forward to trying out Kentmere film and the new "Kentona" VC warmtone glossy later this year. I am a very happy Kentmere fan with the VC Select and Fineprint ranges.

Mark Layne · Mar 17, 2009

johnnywalker said:
There are other reasons for buying a company as I'm sure you know. One of them is to complement your own product line by integrating the best products of both companies and getting rid of the weak ones.
Ilford is a business, not a foundation to ensure that every possible paper will continue to be made for the benefit of the few that might want them.
I hope they continue to make good business decisions, for all our sakes.

In 45 years of business I have never seen any other reason to buy a competitor. If it was not rescued we would be better off with it left alone

PHOTOTONE · Mar 17, 2009

In re-reading the first post of this thread, one would get the impression that Harmans "State-of-the-art" coating facility may not be the ideal venue for specialist emulsions and papers...rather only those products that can justify extremely large production runs.

Gary Holliday · Mar 17, 2009

PHOTOTONE said:
In re-reading the first post of this thread, one would get the impression that Harmans "State-of-the-art" coating facility may not be the ideal venue for specialist emulsions and papers...rather only those products that can justify extremely large production runs.

Agreed. I don't think it was a good idea to dismantle Kentmere's plant...you can't make a British Leyland in a Jaguar plant. As a result, we don't have any niche products and that's what keeps this B&W field going.

Kentmere were not in trouble and now their great products are lost...this is tragic, not to mention the Art range which is personally disastrous and once my existing stocks go and Bergger's paper goes the same way, I'll have to rethink my whole business.

I don't think anyone wants virtual clones of Ilford paper in whatever brand of packaging it comes in, so if Foma are happy with the H&S issues that Kentmere appeared to be fine with all these years, please outsource the manufacturing.

johnnywalker · Mar 17, 2009

Mark Layne said:
In 45 years of business I have never seen any other reason to buy a competitor. If it was not rescued we would be better off with it left alone

I don't know what kind of business you are dealing with, but in the forest industry (where I have spent the last 45 years), integration of product lines is one reason and realizing economies of scale is another.

Alex Hawley · Mar 17, 2009

The market has long requested a variable contrast version of KENTONA and HARMAN is pleased to announce that its product development department is now working on this as part of the launch of THREE NEW PAPERS within the KENTMERE FINEPRINT VC range. It is anticipated that this new warmtone, glossy paper will be available later in 2009.

That works for me! I had tried standardizing with Kentona as my preferred paper, but the single grade available just wouldn't support doing that. A VC version will be most welcome, especially if it comes with the dynamic range that Forte PolyWarmtone had. (HINT HINT )

Thanks Simon for the update, continued support of B&W photography, and the continued product development.

Photo Engineer · Mar 17, 2009

Kentmere was in trouble, if you go back and look at the posts at the time, and it was sold to help cover the expense of the "rescue" if you wish to put it that way. Ilford (Harman) is dropping these products in their modern facility for the same reasons Kodak dropped Azo in theirs (and other products). It was obsolete in the newest facility and hard to keep going in the new facility.

Harman is reflecting the same problems Kodak had a few years ago with paper production, and you see what I have said before. It is not easy to move products between plants.

Today we have a new Lodima paper thanks to M&P, but that paper is a stop faster and about 1/2 grade higher in contrast as well as being on DW FB paper. And, the tone is different. Is that Azo? No, I think not, but if it satisfies the customer then it is as good as.......

I think we should be happy that Ilford is still in business, stop complaining, and enjoy whatever we have from the companies remaining in this business. Thanks, Simon for the update and God Bless Ilford! Long may you stay in any analog business!

PE

PHOTOTONE · Mar 17, 2009

What makes the b/w experience so vibrant is "choice", and with fewer choices, it becomes less artistic. I certainly hope that Harman actually produces "different" products to market under Kentmere, than they do under Ilford and Bergger labels. We need variety, even if the paper base is near identical.

Mark Layne · Mar 17, 2009

johnnywalker said:
I don't know what kind of business you are dealing with, but in the forest industry (where I have spent the last 45 years), integration of product lines is one reason and realizing economies of scale is another.

How is that different to eliminating competition?

MattKing · Mar 17, 2009

Mark Layne said:
How is that different to eliminating competition?

Sometimes the motive is to increase the capabilities of the business, not just to increase the business' market share in the market it is already serving.

Matt

PHOTOTONE · Mar 17, 2009

MattKing said:
Sometimes the motive is to increase the capabilities of the business, not just to increase the business' market share in the market it is already serving.

Matt

Yeah, but if you eliminate the manufacturing line of the company you purchase, you are not increasing the capabilities.

MattKing · Mar 17, 2009

PHOTOTONE said:
Yeah, but if you eliminate the manufacturing line of the company you purchase, you are not increasing the capabilities.

You may be increasing your capabilities, if you hire their employees and make use of their technology and/or knowledge.

Matt

Thomas Bertilsson · Mar 17, 2009

I hate to say it, but you guys have your panties in a bunch...

- Do you think Harman made easy decisions in eliminating those products?

- Do you not think they would have liked to serve you with substitutes?

- Do you not think they tried everything in their power to do just that?

- And, do you reasonably think that they didn't make the best decision they thought they could make, with respect to the market, the economic viability of their company, and their employees?

They made the best of what they have, and they are brave enough to post it here, to show us transparency, not giving us any BS and run-around, but facts, direct from the horse's mouth.

canuhead · Mar 17, 2009

I've read through all the posts but can't seem to find any reference from Simon that Kentmere Bromide will continue to be manufactured. Excellent stock does not equal continued manufacture to me and I'm sure others as well. This is all I want to know, is bromide safe ?

thanks

Richard Jepsen · Mar 17, 2009

Folks, teach someone chemical photography.

Tom Stanworth · Mar 18, 2009

I would rather Ilford cut back on some lines and stayed afloat than tried to satisfy every wish and went under. Maybe if things stabilise some types of paper will come back when the business is stable and healthy?

dphill · Mar 18, 2009

Thomas Bertilsson said:
I hate to say it, but you guys have your panties in a bunch...

I will agree with you Thomas. Simon and Harmon have always, to my experience, gone the extra mile (kilometer) with its customers. It is sad when a product disappears from the world. However, I would rather see a product disappear than a company with all of its products.

It always seems to me that "artists" make do with the materials at hand. "Dilettantes" tend to blame their tools.

As someone said somewhere sometime ago, "Adapt or Die!"

Phormula · Mar 18, 2009

Tom Stanworth said:
I would rather Ilford cut back on some lines and stayed afloat than tried to satisfy every wish and went under. Maybe if things stabilise some types of paper will come back when the business is stable and healthy?

I strongly agree. While I miss many of the slide films of the 80s and 90s, I am still glad that somebody is still giving me a good 100, 200 and 400 ISO slide film. Once Ilford had a nice 100 and 200 ISO slide film that I really loved because of its "retrò" look. It was beyond Fuji and Kodak in terms of grain, but it was like shooting with a 1970s film, with pale colors, a little grain and a warm tone. I still miss it but I can understand the decision to drop it.

KENTMERE Range Update : From HARMAN

Ian Grant

PHOTOTONE

Markus Röhling

eclarke

Ian Grant

Sal Santamaura

railwayman3

Uncle Bill

Mark Layne

PHOTOTONE

Gary Holliday

johnnywalker

Alex Hawley

Photo Engineer

PHOTOTONE

Mark Layne

MattKing

Moderator

PHOTOTONE

MattKing

Moderator

Thomas Bertilsson

canuhead

Richard Jepsen

Tom Stanworth

dphill

Phormula

KENTMERE Range Update : From HARMAN

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