KENTMERE Range Update : From HARMAN

Travis Nunn · Mar 17, 2009

Shawn Dougherty said:
Hardly the same thing, Travis.

Shawn, you are right, they are not the same thing. For what it's worth, I didn't view your previous post as complaining so I wasn't referring to you.

So would you rather they not try to make a newer version of Kentona? From the way I see it they are trying to make something positive out of a negative situation. I'd be willing to bet that if Kentona were profitable enough they'd find a way keep it.

I tried Kentona after reading all the rave reviews on its lith properties, but honestly I didn't like it at all. I know you use it for different purposes, though. Who knows, maybe you'll like the new version of this paper if it does come to fruition.

David A. Goldfarb · Mar 17, 2009

Chazzy said:
It still makes no sense to me that Harman can't make Centennial POP, but Kentmere was able to do it. After all, Kentmere was operating under the same British health and safety regulations as Harman, and the temperature problem doesn't seem to have held them back either. Despite the reference to Ilford's state-of-the-art production facilities, it would seem that Kentmere knew how to do a thing or two which Ilford can't manage, wouldn't it? Ilford ought to offer the formula for Centennial POP to Fomamaybe they can make it. Or give it to the Chinese.

Aside from the health and safety concerns, my understanding from speaking to Simon Galley at PhotoPlus several months ago was that Harman's coating process requires an ultrafiltration stage which was not used on Kentmere's coating line, and ultrafiltration can't easily be done at the high temperature required for producing the POP emulsion.

pgomena · Mar 17, 2009

As Railwayman3 said above, if Kentmere had gone out of business, we'd have none of their products. Ilford/Harman has integrated what they can of the Kentmere range, and is modifying and expanding what remains. The result is a few new products where none would otherwise be. In a down economy and a declining market, Ilford/Harman obviously is continuing to do R&D to make viable products. That's certainly to the company's credit. Our job as consumers of these products is to purchase them so that Ilford/Harman/Kentmere goods remain on the market.

Peter Gomena

eclarke · Mar 17, 2009

Simon R Galley said:
In answer to your questions, stock of all KENTMERE products in the USA is excellent, including KENTONA and BROMIDE.

Simon. ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

Thanks for your participation here Simon. Just keep making the Ilford WT FB, I'll never need another paper..Evan Clarke

Mark Layne · Mar 17, 2009

One does not buy a company to save it or it's products. You buy it to get it out of your hair
Mark

Sanjay Sen · Mar 17, 2009

railwayman3 said:
It's positive if the alternative was that Kentmere would have gone out of business...and, as a tiny company in a rapidly declining market that seems quite likely.

Who would have produced your POP, Kentona or any Kentmere products when that happened....Kodak (no B&W papers)...Agfa (gone)...Orwo (gone)...Fuji (no B&W papers?)....can you do it for us?

But you don't know that, and there's no way to find out now - you are just making the assumption that Kentmere would have gone out of business. Exactly what is your assumption based on? As I see it, Kentmere was making POP and Kentona, however they managed to do it. But these will not be made anymore, after Ilford's acquisition. Whose loss is it?

I use Ilford products a lot - films and chemicals. I want them to survive and grow. But this is something I do not agree with, and it looks to me as if they just eliminated one of their competitors.

But all this is just my opinion.

Sanjay Sen · Mar 17, 2009

Mark Layne said:
One does not buy a company to save it or it's products. You buy it to get it out of your hair
Mark

Yes, that is how I see this as well.

JMC1969 · Mar 17, 2009

Once again I find myself wanting to personally thank Simon and Ilford/Harman for the job they do and being so transparent in doing so. Honestly how many other companies throughout the years have promised things just to turn 180° and give little to no explanation? I can't believe I had to read posts of such disgusting behavior as to actually expect a company to continue to manufacture products that are not making money and offer health concerns for the employees that make it. The greed of people never ceases to amaze me. I don't have a number in my head as to how many products Harman/Ilford produces, but to ask that the employees take extra risk to make one more is just offensive. You should be patting the company on the back for standing up for the well being of their workers and continuing to make other products for your use. Something to take into consideration is that most government regulations are of a minimum stature and a company that is willing to go beyond those levels to hold a higher standard should be commended not berated. As Simon said "we value the H&S of a Czech worker or a Chinese worker just as much as we value that of our own." so offering these products to another company that holds lower standards is not an option. I'm sure if the paper was making money, they would go through the correct measures to adapt their facilities to ensure the safety of their employees and continue to bring you these products. But, I for one, do not want to see Ilford/Harman spend millions of dollars and possibly put themselves in dire straits just to bring you one more paper for free of charge.

Simon R Galley · Mar 17, 2009

Dear All,

Thanks for all your feedback, both good and bad....photo people are passionate people, creative people usually are...we care about what our customers think.. I / we never get upset at comments that are critical at least we know what our customers value and therefore what they think..

We try tell it how it is and we believe that is the best policy...we do have the widest range of mono products in the World about 2,600 SKU's altogether, we value choice, and we value our competitors because we value photography....BUT we run a commercial manufacturing business in a developed economy in very challenging times, we must do things that make commercial sense.

As a direct answer to a range of questions / statements, I think its fair to say we 'acquired' KENTMERE we did not 'rescue' them.

I was involved in all the discussions around the KENTMERE monochrome ranges and I can personally assure you that we looked at all the possible solutions and outcomes in the greatest of detail, from a technical, manufacturing, raw material, health and safety and commercial viability point of view.

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

railwayman3 · Mar 17, 2009

Sanjay Sen said:
But you don't know that, and there's no way to find out now - you are just making the assumption that Kentmere would have gone out of business. Exactly what is your assumption based on? As I see it, Kentmere was making POP and Kentona, however they managed to do it. But these will not be made anymore, after Ilford's acquisition. Whose loss is it?

I use Ilford products a lot - films and chemicals. I want them to survive and grow. But this is something I do not agree with, and it looks to me as if they just eliminated one of their competitors.

But all this is just my opinion.

Not wanting to argue, and the posts subsequent to mine from Jerk151 and Simon clarify the matter considerably. I too want Ilford to survive and grow, and would have loved Kentmere to be still independently producing their products "in the English Lake District", as they were when I first used them in 1970. Yes, that's a loss to me.

But I didn't say that I knew that Kentmere would have gone out of business...I said "if". I don't know and made no assumptions, other than it was more positive for Harmans to continue what they could of the Kentmere range rather than having none of them at all. For further research on the financial state of Kentmere, one could look at their accounts which are on public file for all UK limited companies. But you only have to look at all the other manufacturers who have withdrawn from B&W papers, or even gone out-of-business, to see the fragility of the market...Kodak, Agfa, Orwo, Tura, Forte, Fuji, Konica, Tasma...there's no bigger companies left.

Your assumption is that Kentmere were making POP and Kentona paper profitably and within health-and-safety regulations (though you do say "however they managed to do it")....what is that assumption based on?

Basically, Harman/Ilford is all we have left, so if they cannot make a particular product economically and within good (not just the minimum legal) health-and-safety guidelines, who can?

Anyway, we're all entitled to our opinions, and at least we can discuss them here without rancour.

davekarp · Mar 17, 2009

Simon,

Some have reported that Freestyle has told them Kentmere Bromide has been discontinued as well. Is this accurate? Is Bromide also discontinued?

doughowk · Mar 17, 2009

Had very limited luck with Kentona so will not miss it. POP was nice, but have other choices. Bromide, though, is my favorite cold-tone paper, so glad it was not included in Ilford's cuts of product lines. Do appreciate Simon Galley's honesty and forthrightness in providing us with Ilford product information. May the company prosper so that we may continue in our endeavours too.

Sanjay Sen · Mar 17, 2009

railwayman3 said:
Not wanting to argue, and the posts subsequent to mine from Jerk151 and Simon clarify the matter considerably. And I too want Ilford to survive and grow.

But I didn't actually say that I knew that Kentmere would have gone out of business...I said "if". I don't know and made no assumptions, other than it was more positive for Harmans to continue what they could of Kentmere products rather than having none of them at all. For further research on the financial state of Kentmere, one could look at their accounts which are on public file for all UK limited companies. But you only have to look at all the other manufacturers who have withdrawn from B&W papers, or even gone out-of-business, to see the fragility of the market...Kodak, Agfa, Orwo, Tura, Forte, Fuji, Konica, Tasma...there's no bigger companies left.

Your assumption is that Kentmere were making POP and Kentona paper profitably and within health-and-safety guidelines (as you say "however they managed to do it")....what is that assumption based on?

Basically, Harman/Ilford is all we have left, so if they cannot make a particular product economically and within health-and-safety guidelines, who can?

Anyway, we're all entitled to our opinions, and at least we can discuss them here without rancour.

Agreed, and I see your point. Also, I value the fact that we can disagree without rancour!

Thank you!

Regards,
Sanjay

Doremus Scudder · Mar 17, 2009

Simon,

Thanks for the information.

You have not addressed the question about Kentmere Bromide line of papers. There are posts on other forums stating that Freestyle has indicated that that line too will be discontinued. Is this true, or will the Kentmere Bromide papers continue to be manufactured?

TIA

Doremus Scudder
www.DoremusScudder.com

johnnywalker · Mar 17, 2009

Mark Layne said:
One does not buy a company to save it or it's products. You buy it to get it out of your hair
Mark

There are other reasons for buying a company as I'm sure you know. One of them is to complement your own product line by integrating the best products of both companies and getting rid of the weak ones.
Ilford is a business, not a foundation to ensure that every possible paper will continue to be made for the benefit of the few that might want them.
I hope they continue to make good business decisions, for all our sakes.

Sanjay Sen · Mar 17, 2009

Dear Simon,

I think you are correct: photographers and artists are passionate people, and usually like to argue and get their views across.

Anyway, as one of the "critics" of Harman/Ilford on this thread, I would like to thank you for all the information you have provided us, now and in the past. I look forward to your continued support for B&W photography products, and I, on my part, will continue to buy and use those products. (I may note here that I use Ilford products exclusively for print chemicals.)

Thank you again.

Best wishes,
Sanjay

Markus Röhling · Mar 17, 2009

What I would have expected from Ilford/ Harman is to look into these issues before making any commitment "that the Kentmere brand [...] will continue to offer the same resin coated and fibre based monochrome papers" (http://www.ilfordphoto.com/pressroom/article.asp?n=87).

If they would have not made this commitment I would certainly have stocked more POP.

I don't see any merit in offering a "VC Kentona". Ilford could have done so without purchasing Kentmere, though it would have to have a different name. The I would have had a choice between the Kentmere Kentona and the Ilford "Kentona".

Markus

Markus Röhling · Mar 17, 2009

davekarp said:
Some have reported that Freestyle has told them Kentmere Bromide has been discontinued as well. Is this accurate? Is Bromide also discontinued?

Apparently it is.

Simon R Galley said:
]In answer to your questions, stock of all KENTMERE products in the USA is excellent, including KENTONA and BROMIDE.

That puts Bromide on the same level as Kentona. Though Simon Galley nowhere said that Bromide is discontinued, he also didn't say that it is continued.

Markus

PHOTOTONE · Mar 17, 2009

railwayman3 said:
But you only have to look at all the other manufacturers who have withdrawn from B&W papers, or even gone out-of-business, to see the fragility of the market...Kodak, Agfa, Orwo, Tura, Forte, Fuji, Konica, Tasma...there's no bigger companies left.

Hold on just a moment. Fuji have not exited b/w papers, they still make some, they are just not available in the USA. Agfa/Gevaert still makes RC b/w papers for their aerial photography market, and some have been repackaged for consumers by third parties. It is only Agfa in Germany that went away. There is no doubt that Harmon is the biggest player left in b/w papers, though.

Sal Santamaura · Mar 17, 2009

Tom Kershaw said:
Simon,

Has Kentmere Bromide been discontinued?

Tom.

davekarp said:
Simon,

Some have reported that Freestyle has told them Kentmere Bromide has been discontinued as well. Is this accurate? Is Bromide also discontinued?

Simon,

Tom's and Dave's questions bracketed your post #34, which didn't answer them. May I also expand the question by asking what grades and sizes of Bromide will continue to be available in the USA in case Bromide isn't discontinued?

Thanks!

Bruce Osgood · Mar 17, 2009

ILFORD Photo/HARMAN technology Limited is a business, not unlike Microsoft.

srs5694 · Mar 17, 2009

railwayman3 said:
Kodak (no B&W papers)...Agfa (gone)...Orwo (gone)...Fuji (no B&W papers?)....can you do it for us?

A couple of corrections to the above:

Although Agfa is gone, many of their B&W papers are now being manufactured again and sold under the Adox brand name. The last I heard, the VC RC papers are available now and the VC FB papers will be available soon.
Although Fuji doesn't market its B&W papers in the US (or in Europe, AFAIK), they do make B&W papers. They can be ordered from Japan Exposures (formerly known as Megaperls), although the shipping costs to send them out of Japan are likely to be ridiculous. Disclaimer: I've never ordered from this outfit, although I've got them bookmarked in case the desire to obtain samples of some of their exotic (to me in the US) products overwhelms me some day.

PHOTOTONE · Mar 17, 2009

Here is the link to a 2 page list of "clearance" b/w photo papers at Freestyle. People can make their own judgement of whether "Bromide" is discontinued.

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/clearance.php?resultpage=1&man=&ccat=50

Markus Röhling · Mar 17, 2009

railwayman3 said:
But you only have to look at all the other manufacturers who have withdrawn from B&W papers, or even gone out-of-business, to see the fragility of the market...Kodak, Agfa, Orwo, Tura, Forte, Fuji, Konica, Tasma...there's no bigger companies left.

I though Fuji is still making B&W papers. At least you can buy in Germany a paper called "Fuji Rembrand".

In addition there is of cause Foma (Fomatone I like very much), but also Efke/ Fotokemika, Slavitch, Oriental.

Markus

PHOTOTONE · Mar 17, 2009

Markus Röhling said:
I though Fuji is still making B&W papers. At least you can buy in Germany a paper called "Fuji Rembrand".

In addition there is of cause Foma (Fomatone I like very much), but also Efke/ Fotokemika, Slavitch, Oriental

Markus

Yes, Fuji Rembrandt, and Fuji Gaslight Contact paper are still shown.

Certainly all the other vendors you mention are still making photo paper, and not to mention Oriental, and Bergger is selling a paper made by Harman.

But I think the point is that these are very small operators, compared to the giants that Kodak and Agfa Germany used to be. Well, Fuji is a giant.

KENTMERE Range Update : From HARMAN

Travis Nunn

David A. Goldfarb

Moderator

pgomena

eclarke

Mark Layne

Sanjay Sen

Sanjay Sen

JMC1969

Simon R Galley

railwayman3

davekarp

doughowk

Sanjay Sen

Doremus Scudder

johnnywalker

Sanjay Sen

Markus Röhling

Markus Röhling

PHOTOTONE

Sal Santamaura

Bruce Osgood

Membership Council

srs5694

PHOTOTONE

Markus Röhling

PHOTOTONE

KENTMERE Range Update : From HARMAN

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