Kentmere Bromide Graded Paper Problem

Andre Noble · May 7, 2006

I posted this on Photo Net. but wanted to get additional feedback here if possible.

I'm experiencing problems during the dry mount press flattening of Selenium - toned Kentmere Bromide Fiber Graded paper prints. I'm getting roughly parallel wrinkle/ripple/indentations across the surface when I set the Seal press to 200F, 1 minute pressing. They occur only in one direction in relation to the press horizontally - meaning when I rotate the paper under the press, the lines are now running vertically on the paper. The wrinkles seem to be an interaction with the museum board and release paper I have sandwiched between my press platens. I have never had this problem with any other paper.

FYI, I believe 200F, 1 minute is roughly the typical time/temperature under the platen for actual dry mounting of B&W Fiber prints, and I also use these settings to just flatten, not mount prints after processing as in this case, and have never had problems with Ilford FB paper. In addition, I'm also noticing (It's most apparent in the very dark areas of the print) a chalky hazy film develops over the surface of the print.

However, When I lower the temperature to 160F and press the Kentmere Bromide prints under the Seal 210 press for only 25 seconds, these problems diminish significantly.

I am concerned with two issues: 1) These wrinkles look permanent. This is unacceptable as 200F, 1 minute is my standard dry mount time and temp (and probably an overall standard as well for B&W dry mounting) so the paper must also be able to withstand these conditions without acting up. 2) The chalky white film that develops at 200F can't be good. What is it? It's almost like the gel layer or emulsion can't stand up to the heat and gets scorched. Thanks for any tidbits you can provide.

It was suggested on Photonet that the wrinkles are due to dimensional instability in the Kentmere paper. This would definitely explain the wrinkles: Upon rapid dessication in the hot press, the paper contracts more than the gel/emulsion layer causing strs lines to appear. The 'chaulky appearance may be due to speration of the emulsion from the paper backing itself.

The Kentmere visually is extremely nice, but if I can't solve these two issues I may have to go back to Ilford. thanks for any additional input. If others have had these problems, perhaps we can clue Kentmere in on them.

p krentz · May 7, 2006

I used to use 180-F and cooked it for 2.5 -3 min.with the print pressed between one 4 ply mount board on top and the regular mount board underneath, no release paper because it has wax on it which is probably your white residue when it cools. When it came out of the press I would lift the mount board to make sure it was not stuck to the print, then put it back on the print and put a 20 lb dictionary I have on top until the next morning, never had a problem with any DW paper unless I went over the 180-F or did not put the book on the print while cooling. Pat

Andre Noble · May 7, 2006

Pat, my problem is paper-specific. Also, I never heard of the wax from Seal Dry Mount release paper 'coming off' at 200F. It's designed for this.

Bob F. · May 7, 2006

Have you asked Kentmere? (www.kentmere.co.uk). There may be a known issue and cure.

Andre Noble · May 7, 2006

I have notified Kentmere of the problem and also provided a link to this thread.

MMfoto · May 7, 2006

I would suggest, as a starting place, to calibrate the temp. of the press if you haven't done so already. They can be quite a bit off. There is a test strip that you can buy that turns a certain color for a certain temperature.

I used to see what I think are the same type of wrinkles in my Begger VCCB after flattening. I don't really know what I did that stopped the problem, but I flatten my prints at the lowest temp which I believe is 160F. No point in using more heat than is required, as far as I'm concerned.

Andre Noble · May 7, 2006

Standard Dry Mount Temp is 200F for B&W prints. If the paper has dimensional instability and contracts severly upon dessication under the platen, then there is a problem with the paper. If you can only use 160F, then what will you do the time comes to dry mount your print to Museum board at 200F?

You'll be wishing you had done your work on Ilford, or that Kodak was still in business.

George Collier · May 7, 2006

A couple of things, maybe helpful, maybe not -
My experience with the Seal 210 - I haven't dry mounted for some time, but still use it to flatten-
I always used calibration strips when mounting (I suggest you but some, they are cheap) to get mine to 210F for MT5, or Seal Archival mount. 25-30 seconds was always enough, with one layer of release paper on top.
For flattening - I stack prints in the press, each one in a sandwich of either release paper, or glassine (it's cheaper), so there's two layers of one or the other stuff between prints. I heat the press up, closed with the prints inside, until I feel the top outside getting warm (I don't measure it, but it's way less than mounting temperature). Then I turn the press off, come back in an hour or two, and all prints are flat and smooth. I then put the prints in storage in some archival material (like all prints stacked between two sheets of matte board) in a way that they can't rewarp. When I take them out to matte and frame, they are flat. I have never seen what you describe. I would press Kentmere for response.

Andre Noble · May 17, 2006

Kentmere's Response:

"Dear Mr Noble:

Thank you for your enquiry. We are sorry to hear that you are having problems dry mounting our Bromide Gd. 3 paper. We generally do not expect to encounter any problems dry mounting either our Bromide or Fineprint fibre-based papers (with the exception of Kentona, which has a lower emulsion meting point and may be damaged with excessive heat).

The base we use is made to exactly the same spec (in terms of treatments and quality) as Ilford's by the same paper manufacturer. (They also made the base paper for Agfa and Kodak when they were manufacturing B&W fibre papers). Only the base colour and total grammage varies between the photographic manufacturers coating these otherwise very similar base papers.

The one key difference with all our emulsions however compared to Ilford, is that they do not tolerate excessive washing or long-term storage wet before drying and mounting. Overnight storing of soaking prints is highly likely to be the primary cause of your problems.

The maximum wash time we recommend in ambient water is 45 minutes (30 mins in a good flow of water @ 65-68 F should be more than sufficient). Note: this should be reduced if the wash water temperature is significantly above 68 F.

Almost definitely the water has soaked the base, to the point the water has weakened the bond with the emulsion, causing the dimension instability and chalky deposits mentioned.

We would be grateful if you could try washing new prints for a normal time and then attempting to dry mount the resultant prints. Unless there is an unknown fault the paper should dry and mount flat. We would appreciate it if you could let us know the outcome of your further trials and hope you may be able to continue to use our papers without further problems...

Best regards Garry ". (Gary Hume, Kemtmere)

PhotoJim · May 17, 2006

Thanks to Kentmere for a very informative reply, and thanks for posting it here.

Bob F. · May 17, 2006

BG: thanks for posting Kentmere's response. Did you have the prints wet for a long time, and if so, can you let us know how you get on with a shorter wet-time?

Cheers, Bob.

Andre Noble · May 30, 2006

Bad News

Bad News:
I tried a fresh batch of Kentmere Bromide Graded paper purchased from Freestyle photo in Los Angeles, and did an all-day in the darkroom making five custom prints with significantly less wet time for the paper.

A few hours before I conducted this the dry mount press test, I was so confident that the manufacturer's suggestion above would prove correct (that an overnight soak was to blame) I went online and ordered $900 of the Kentmere paper from B&H this morning.

I came home from work and began dry mount flattening of these prints. Immediately, the Kentmere Bromide graded paper exhibited the exact same problem above in my initial post. The results are totally useless. Granted I did not use the manufacture's 30 to 45 minutes recommended wash time, but used a more practical 2 to 3 hours wash. Even if I had used just 30 minute wash I think the problem would still be the same, as the recurring problem was unabbated with a much reduced wet time. A fiber paper ought to be able to stand a three hour soak and stand up to the dry mount process without destructing.

Fortunately, I choose B&H's "wait to ship when all is in stock" checkout option, and since not all items were in stock, I can hopefully cancel my order in time first thing tomorrow morning. If they won't cancel the order I'll raise hell.

Neither Ilford multigrade fiber nor graded fiber paper does this, so Ilford will be getting my hard earned $900 USD.

For the record, my process was:

Kentmere Bromide Graded, #2, #3, #4 in Photographers Formulary 130 paper developer, water stop bath, Photographer's formulary TF-4 fixer, Kodak Selnium toner 1:5, 2 - 3 hour wash, dey mount at 200F for 1 minute.

jeroldharter · May 30, 2006

I use a Seal 210 MX to flatten and dry mount FB paper and have never had a problem. I just bought some Kentmere VC paper to test so I can't comment specifically.

I use 185 degrees to flatten paper in a sandwich with 2 4-ply mat boards beneath and 1 4-ply board above the print (no release paper). When I start the line for flattening, I heat up the mat board sandwich alone for 2-3 minute to get rid of some of the moisture so that prints don't stick to the mat board. I use a 2 minute cycle at 185 degrees and then put the prints under a Seal metal weight with a 4-ply mat board on top to protect the hot emulsion.

I am at times a bit sloppy with print washing. I leave the washer full of water and load it up with prints in the course of the printing session before turning on the washer for an hour. The total in-water time might be 2-6 hours. I have never had a problem, except with drying screens which I no longer use.

I hope I fair well with the Kentmere this weekend.

Andre Noble · May 31, 2006

Jerold, you didn't mention which paper Brand and type you successfully post-processed.

Also, come back and let us know how you faired with the Kentmere VC.

Ole · Jun 1, 2006

Bronicaguy said:
... The results are totally useless. Granted I did not use the manufacture's 30 to 45 minutes recommended wash time, but used a more practical 2 to 3 hours wash. Even if I had used just 30 minute wash I think the problem would still be the same, as the recurring problem was unabbated with a much reduced wet time. A fiber paper ought to be able to stand a three hour soak and stand up to the dry mount process without destructing....

So after the manufacturer gives a very clear statement regarding maximum washing times, you still manage to find fault with the paper after washing it for three times that recommended maximum???

Marc . · Jun 1, 2006

Bronicaguy said:
Even if I had used just 30 minute wash I think the problem would still be the same, as the recurring problem was unabbated with a much reduced wet time.

Can you try and tell us ? It would be fair.

Marc

doughowk · Jun 1, 2006

I've been using Kentmere Bromide for about a year & have not had any problems. My wash times are in the 30 min range; and I've dry mounted at temperatures between 180-210 f. I also use TF-4.

dancqu · Jun 1, 2006

Bronicaguy said:
Photographer's formulary TF-4 fixer, ... 2 - 3 hour wash, ...

Here's a thought. TF-4 is a very alkaline fix. It may
affect Kentmere's included emulsion hardeners. That
and the protracted wash may have pushed and pulled
the emulsion too far. I thought TF-4 was a short wash
fixer. Two things you might try; a more nearly neutral
fix with hca and a more like the recommended wash
time. Pre-hardened emulsions likely vary. Dan

Andre Noble · Jun 2, 2006

Ole said:
So after the manufacturer gives a very clear statement regarding maximum washing times, you still manage to find fault with the paper after washing it for three times that recommended maximum???

That's right. The manufactureer's recommended 30 to 45 minute total soak time is a cover for an inadequate product. I should note that in my recent test above, I ran Ilford MGIV glossy fiber alongside the Kentmere Bromide. The Ilford (as always) came out perfect and unscathed after the three hour total soak time (includes the time from developer to final wash, after selenium toning) . The Kentmere DISINTEGRATED, from it's base to the emulsion, it broke down entirely.

My logistics does not allow me to babysit a single image for 30 minutes 45 minutes and pull it. Besides, I am not the only person to figure out there is a real problem here. The problem is not a 2 or 3 hour soak. It's the product.

Lachlan Young · Jun 2, 2006

Bronicaguy said:
That's right. The manufactureer's recommended 30 to 45 minute total soak time is a cover for an inadequate product. I should note that in my recent test above, I ran Ilford MGIV glossy fiber alongside the Kentmere Bromide. The Ilford (as always) came out perfect and unscathed after the three hour total soak time (includes the time from developer to final wash, after selenium toning) . The Kentmere DISINTEGRATED, from it's base to the emulsion, it broke down entirely.

My logistics does not allow me to babysit a single image for 30 minutes 45 minutes and pull it. Besides, I am not the only person to figure out there is a real problem here. The problem is not a 2 or 3 hour soak. It's the product.

Well...In my experience wash times longer than 1 hour with Adox Fineprint can lead to a distinct yellowing of the base due to the lack of whitener and siginificantly reduced levels of emulsion hardner - I believe the emulsion technology of Kentmere Bromide and Adox Fineprint is of similar vintage. Note that This is in relation to wash times - I use a holding bath of room temperature water to hold my prints until the end of a printing session then selenium tone, hypo-clear and wash for 30 minutes as per the hca bottle. If the manufacturer tells you something important like this believe them!

Hopoe this helps,

Lachlan

dancqu · Jun 2, 2006

Bronicaguy said:
The manufactureer's recommended 30 to 45 minute
total soak time is a cover for an inadequate product.
I ran Ilford MGIV glossy fiber alongside the Kentmere
Bromide.
My logistics does not allow me to babysit a single image
for 30 minutes 45 minutes and pull it. The problem is not
a 2 or 3 hour soak. It's the product.

The 30 to 45 minute time is a ballpark amount and agrees
with many other papers. There's Ilford's 5-10-5 minute wash,
hca, wash recommendation. You'd be tearing your babysitting
hair with that routine. I always overnight prints. Kentmere's
Fineprint has been going 16 to 20+ hours. No problems.

I see that Kentmere suggests an acid stop where Ilford
suggests that or water. I and another have mentioned the
paper's included hardeners. Have you tried any of the more
usual more normal ph fixers? Dan

Andre Noble · Jun 2, 2006

No Dan, I haven't tried a fixer other than Photographer's formulary TF-4 or an acid stop bath, or a shorter (1 hour wash).

If I decide to give Kentmere Bromide paper one more try, it will be with those parameters.

jeroldharter · Jun 3, 2006

Bronicaguy said:
Jerold, you didn't mention which paper Brand and type you successfully post-processed.

Also, come back and let us know how you faired with the Kentmere VC.

Kodak Polymax FA and Zone VI Brilliant VC, both FB.

I hope to get to the Kentmere tomorrow and Monday. I am hoping not too many people around here are trying to kill themselves so I can get some darkroom time. Some people are so inconsiderate.

Shawn Dougherty · Jun 5, 2007

I have used Kentmere Bromide for over a year now. I use it with Amidol and KRST. I let the prints soak in a tray while I print (usually for 6 or 8 hours). I then wash them for the recommended 30 to 45 minutes. I dry mount with a Seal 210 at 200degrees, use the seal interleaving paper and dry mount tissue and mount on 4ply Artcare Alpharag. I have never had a single problem. The paper has been bullet proof and I was very surprised to read this thread.

fhovie · Jun 5, 2007

Kentmere is not the only company that makes papers with soft emulsions - on a glossy paper, if it is not soft, it cannot be ferro-typed. Handling of soft papers is part of the art of getting a particular look. I have ruined prints made with various paper brands. I always calibrated my processes to the materials I found most pleasing.

Kentmere Bromide Graded Paper Problem

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