Kentmere Bromide for Lith Printing?

Travis Nunn · Jan 12, 2007

Now that my favorite paper for lith printing is soon to be gone (Forte Fortezo) I need to start looking for replacement. I've not tried Kentmere Bromide before and I'm curious to know if anyone has used it for lith printing and if so, what are your opinions on it. I've read that it's a fine paper for regular printing, but I've not read any comments on it with regards to lith printing.

kjsphoto · Jan 13, 2007

From what I seen the graded Bromide does not work at least with photo speed developer at 1:15 A and B and over an hour in the developer.

But the Kentona worked well and I hear Fomatone MG works well. Never tried the FOMA but I am going to miss the look of Forte for sure.

Ask Tim Ruddman he is the expert on lith.

Travis Nunn · Jan 13, 2007

Thanks Kevin. Over an hour? Sounds similar to the experience I had with Ilford. I had read over and over that Ilford papers don't lith well, but I had some and I had to try it for myself ;-)

I've tried Kentona before and for some reason wasn't too crazy about it. I've tried Fomabrom, too. Its not bad in lith (you can get some really nice, deep blues with gold toner)

I'm still waiting for Kentmere to release their Art Classic replacement. That was my favorite before Fortezo. I bought a pack of the Fomatone Chamois a few weeks ago to see how it compares to the old Art Classic, but for various reasons I haven't had a chance to try it yet.

I am hoping Tim reads this. I took a couple of lith printing sessions with him at the APUG conference last year and it was great. I just wish I could afford to take a full workshop with him.

kjsphoto · Jan 13, 2007

I hear ya. I also tried Oriental in lith and nothing. I think, but not sure, that it is due to the low silver content and maybe the developing agents in the paper. I know Forte had high silver content and no agents and maybe that is why it was so good. Who knows, but in any case I am really bummed about it.

bwakel · Jan 13, 2007

Foma

Travis

I've used Oriental, Kentmere Kentona, Foma Fomatone and Chamois for Lith.

I found Oriental dull and uninspiring, Kentona gives the wildest colours (particularly after selenium toning) and the deepest blacks whilst Fomatone and Chamois give more subtle mushroom/ochre colours with lower D-Max and react well with selenium and gold.

My most recent gallery posting of hoar frost was created on Fomatone MG and I've tried re-printing it on Chamois. The Chamois gives very similar results with slightly better D-Max and the finish of the paper is absolutely beautiful - definitely my favourite finish to date. The Fomatone is very glossy and quite flimsy and I had trouble keeping it flat.

Barry

kjsphoto · Jan 13, 2007

Barry,

DId you try the current version of Oriental or the older version. With the stuff that is available today I cannot get it to work with lith at all.

I have some of the Chamois paper here and am planning on trying it. I am not sure I understand. Does the Foma MG work well or no, is it worth buying or should I stick with the Chamois and Kentona now that forte is gone?

Thank you so much for this post!

Travis Nunn · Jan 13, 2007

Kevin, I don't know which version of Oriental you've tried, but I tried the Oriental Seagull VC and I got pretty crappy results, too. I haven't tried the warmtone or the graded, however. Actually, now that I think about it, Bergger VCNB gave me almost as crappy results as the Oriental.

I just bought several packs of paper I haven't tried before (Slavich, Fotokemika/Varycon and Fomatone Warmtone), and I'm going to give Kentona a second try.

Gay Larson · Jan 13, 2007

I tried Ilford first and had the one hour experience with a nice result but some peppering. Then I tried Foma and I really like it a lot. It takes about 10 to 20 minutes and the tone is very nice.

Mark Layne · Jan 13, 2007

kjsphoto said:
Barry,

DId you try the current version of Oriental or the older version. With the stuff that is available today I cannot get it to work with lith at all.

I have some of the Chamois paper here and am planning on trying it. I am not sure I understand. Does the Foma MG work well or no, is it worth buying or should I stick with the Chamois and Kentona now that forte is gone?

Thank you so much for this post!

A lot of paper would be saved by buying a copy of Tim Rudman's new book.

Almost all the questions on this thread are preanswered
Mark

Gay Larson · Jan 13, 2007

Perhaps so Mark but it's nice to hear others experiences on a subject I am interested in. I have both of Tim's books and have read them both. I find they are invaluable. Still I learn more by doing and experimenting. And I love talking about it.

kjsphoto · Jan 13, 2007

Mark,

Not quite. I bought both of Tims book and he even mentioned that at the time of printing things have changed. Oriental does not lith and neither did the Ilford papers I tried. I also tried the Arista EDU Ultra with 0 success and as Tim states on pg 17 he used to get good results with it but has not recently tested it. Forte is no longer available, Bregger is no longer left pg 16 as that is re-branded Forte, Nuance is suppose to work but JandC isn’t open and you cant get it either pg 16 first paragraph, I heard Kentmere classic art worked no longer available either, so what is left that will work?

Also with recent change to enviroment the paper that used cadium in it that lith very well are not allowed to be made with cadium anymore.

Now he did mention on a positive note (unconfirmed positive note ) that Ilford is making changes pg 17 last paragraph that they might be bringing products to market that will lith. If they do I will be buying it.

Fomatone MG and Kentmere Kentonna are the only ones as far as I know with my limited knowledge.

So Mike with the recent change in the game the book no longer answer the question as quite a lot of the papers mentioned are no longer available.

So as I see it this thread is extremely important and useful to those of us that love printing with lith developers.

Travis Nunn · Jan 13, 2007

Mark Layne said:
A lot of paper would be saved by buying a copy of Tim Rudman's new book.

Almost all the questions on this thread are preanswered
Mark

So you're suggesting we not experiment and discuss our findings? Tim's books are invaluable, but even Tim would encourage experimenting.

kjsphoto · Jan 13, 2007

t_nunn said:
So you're suggesting we not experiment and discuss our findings? Tim's books are invaluable, but even Tim would encourage experimenting.

Exactly. I am with you 100% Travis!

tim rudman · Jan 15, 2007

t_nunn said:
Now that my favorite paper for lith printing is soon to be gone (Forte Fortezo) I need to start looking for replacement. I've not tried Kentmere Bromide before and I'm curious to know if anyone has used it for lith printing and if so, what are your opinions on it. I've read that it's a fine paper for regular printing, but I've not read any comments on it with regards to lith printing.

Travis,
The bromide paper doesn't lith. I don't use it but have once again checked with Kentmere, who confirm this.

It MIGHT be good in lith redevelopment after bleach though as it seems to be the supercoating that prevents it from lith developing with infectious development. Again, I stress I haven't tried this but there are interesting other examples of similar behaviour (e.g. Fineprint & Fimeprint Warmtone).

The emulsion in Art Document is a bromide emulsion without supercoat and it does lith extremely well.

If you have the Bromide paper in stock try bleaching and redevelopment and let us know.
Tim

tim rudman · Jan 15, 2007

t_nunn said:
snip snip
I've tried Kentona before and for some reason wasn't too crazy about it. I've tried Fomabrom, too. Its not bad in lith (you can get some really nice, deep blues with gold toner)

I'm still waiting for Kentmere to release their Art Classic replacement. That was my favorite before Fortezo. I bought a pack of the Fomatone Chamois a few weeks ago to see how it compares to the old Art Classic, but for various reasons I haven't had a chance to try it yet.

I am hoping Tim reads this. I took a couple of lith printing sessions with him at the APUG conference last year and it was great. I just wish I could afford to take a full workshop with him.

The Fomatone MG Chamois looks great Travis. I have just got a box but not yet used it (a bit fresh, only just coated).
As an AC lover, the base will be familiar to you though. It is the last stock of the base that Art Classic used until it became no longer available, so it has that lovely Art Classic surface and a warm base.
I have seen and handled it and it does look lovely and I'm looking forward to using it. I have exactly the right images in mind to print on it.

By the way, you mention the Art Classic replacement. As you know from the book it was scheduled to have been out by now. I've checked with Kentmere and the latest news is that they were not satisfied with the paper when it came off the coating plant (which is not always the same as the lab results, which I saw for AC and looked good)
However, they have sourced another new base now, which looks extremely promising (& thicker) and lab tests look good they tell me. They plan to start coating shortly before the 'FOCUS' show in the UK at the end of Feb, to have sampes on show. Large scale production can throw up differences not seem in the lab though. The paper needs to lie fairly flat, (steamed during coating etc). IF production goes as well as the lab samples they hope to have it out by the end of Spring. Let's hope it goes as planned.
Tim

tim rudman · Jan 15, 2007

bwakel said:
Travis

snip snip ... Kentona gives the wildest colours (particularly after selenium toning) and the deepest blacks whilst Fomatone and Chamois give more subtle mushroom/ochre colours with lower D-Max and react well with selenium and gold.

Barry

Barry, try Fomatone MG (& MG Classic) in much higher dilutions of dev. Then you will see the colours shift to strong salmon colour - and tric colour slpit in selenium
Tim

Travis Nunn · Jan 15, 2007

Thanks for the input Tim! I certainly hope everything goes well with Kentmere's Art Classic replacement. I still have about 1/2 a box left of the old AC and I'm using it very sparingly.

Your thought about bleaching and redeveloping the Bromide paper is an interesting thought, though. Once I go through some of the new paper I have, I might give that a try with the Bromide paper.

Cheers!

kjsphoto · Jan 15, 2007

Tim when you say higher what do you mean ;1:5 or 1:50? Which direction are you referring to when saying higher?

Thank you again fro the excellent info.

tim rudman · Jan 15, 2007

kjsphoto said:
Mark,

Not quite. I bought both of Tims book and he even mentioned that at the time of printing things have changed. Oriental does not lith and neither did the Ilford papers I tried. I also tried the Arista EDU Ultra with 0 success and as Tim states on pg 17 he used to get good results with it but has not recently tested it. Forte is no longer available, Bregger is no longer left pg 16 as that is re-branded Forte, Nuance is suppose to work but JandC isn’t open and you cant get it either pg 16 first paragraph, I heard Kentmere classic art worked no longer available either, so what is left that will work?

Also with recent change to enviroment the paper that used cadium in it that lith very well are not allowed to be made with cadium anymore.

Now he did mention on a positive note (unconfirmed positive note ) that Ilford is making changes pg 17 last paragraph that they might be bringing products to market that will lith. If they do I will be buying it.

Fomatone MG and Kentmere Kentonna are the only ones as far as I know with my limited knowledge.

So Mike with the recent change in the game the book no longer answer the question as quite a lot of the papers mentioned are no longer available.

So as I see it this thread is extremely important and useful to those of us that love printing with lith developers.

Hi Kevin,
Just to pick up a couple of your points ...

Cadmium: My understanding, from a number of close sources that I regard as highly reliable, is that Fomatone MG (& MG Classic) (not the other Foma papers) is the only paper STILL containing cadmium that is currently made - unless there are some obscure papers in Asia that we don't see. The way it responds to development and to selenium certainly makes this probable. EEC regullations will surely bite soon and change this state of affairs, as they did with the old Kentona, Art Classic and Tapestry papers.

Ilford: Please understand that AFAIK there are no FIRM plans by Ilford to bring out lithable papers, but they have indicated that this is one (of several) options that may be up for consideration at some future date, so don't rule it in or out. The entry in the book was not intended to raise false hopes, but to signal a 'watch this space' approach, in case they do.

"Fomatone MG and Kentmere Kentonna are the only ones as far as I know":
Although the loss of Forte papers again would be a big loss if it happens, things are not quite that bad though, I'm pleased to say.
In addition to Kentona from Kentmere, we have their new Art Classic and Art doc papers probably coming out shortly.
We have Fotospeed Lith paper don't forget.
All the Foma emulsions, but especially Fomatone MG, MG Classic and MG Chamois.
Kentmere Fineprint VC Warmtone liths well.
Slavitch liths to a very cold graphic result that didn't appeal to me much when I tried it, but I was impressed with the Russian submissions to The World of Lith Printing that were on that paper. Take a look.
Rollie - I'm not sure what has happened to these plans that I mentioned in the book. The information came direct from source and they said they would send samples when available. However, follow up queries from me have not been answered so I don't know any more at this stage.
There are a few other question marks on some other papers as you know - but don't forget we also have the bleach and redevelopment option and this pulls in other papers that don't lith dev on what I call '1st pass' but do on '2nd pass', (as mentioned on p.18 re Fineprint Warmtone & Fineprint for example)

Bottom line ... there are still plenty of good lith materials out there but we live in changing times! And maybe the Forte story isn't yet over. They have been here before after all.
Tim

tim rudman · Jan 15, 2007

kjsphoto said:
Tim when you say higher what do you mean ;1:5 or 1:50? Which direction are you referring to when saying higher?

Thank you again fro the excellent info.

Try around 1+20 or more Kevin.
Combined with greater over-exposure you can get really intense colours too. Take a look at the Guitar image caption in Moersch's portfolio section in World of Lith Printing. He uses this technique with added Br for strong colour and deep blacks - see also the lith-lith 2-bath technique in a previous chapter.
Many of my images are softer and less graphic and can take the softer warmer blacks that go with the high dilution colours, as I use it prior to selenium, which gives me the final colours I want, but also deepens the blacks if I have let them come through.
Tim

Mark Layne · Jan 15, 2007

t_nunn said:
So you're suggesting we not experiment and discuss our findings? Tim's books are invaluable, but even Tim would encourage experimenting.

Not at all. I probably dabble around more than most. I have found though that many of the frustrations I experience are resolved by a careful rereading of a section of one of these books that I glossed over.
Mark

Mark Layne · Jan 15, 2007

kjsphoto said:
Mark,

Not quite. I bought both of Tims book and he even mentioned that at the time of printing things have changed. Oriental does not lith and neither did the Ilford papers I tried. I also tried the Arista EDU Ultra with 0 success and as Tim states on pg 17 he used to get good results with it but has not recently tested it. Forte is no longer available, Bregger is no longer left pg 16 as that is re-branded Forte, Nuance is suppose to work but JandC isnt open and you cant get it either pg 16 first paragraph, I heard Kentmere classic art worked no longer available either, so what is left that will work?

Also with recent change to enviroment the paper that used cadium in it that lith very well are not allowed to be made with cadium anymore.

Now he did mention on a positive note (unconfirmed positive note ) that Ilford is making changes pg 17 last paragraph that they might be bringing products to market that will lith. If they do I will be buying it.

Fomatone MG and Kentmere Kentonna are the only ones as far as I know with my limited knowledge.

So Mike with the recent change in the game the book no longer answer the question as quite a lot of the papers mentioned are no longer available.

So as I see it this thread is extremely important and useful to those of us that love printing with lith developers.

Kevin
Just a couple of points from my own experience. Forte Polywarmtone seems to give beautiful pinks with ease and will be sorely missed (if its pinks you like). Fomatone MG, Fotokemika Vario Classic, and Kentona are my next choices for pinks.
I also feel that more attention should be given to Ilford MG Warmtone as it is likely to be available for a long time. I find it can give very nice ivory tones, but it is neglected I believe because many do not understand that it is very prone to 'turbo-fix up effect'. If this is recognized it can be lovely. Also results from CuSO4 bleaching and redevelopment in lith are unique. Bob Carnie uses it for much of his work.
In my youth I made many negatives on soot and chalk films which I abandoned because of unpleasing tonality. A lot of these now historic records make lovely lith prints
Hope this is helpful and keep on experimenting.
Mark

Travis Nunn · Jan 15, 2007

Mark, when you say "turbo-fix up effect" are you talking about the bleaching that occurs in rapid fix? If so, does alkaline fix get around this problem? The problem I've had with Ilford papers in lith (and I'm not sure if I tried Ilford WT or not, but I think I have) is that it takes forever in the developer and ends up with a really nasty peppered look to it. My normal dilution is 1:19 (Maco Superlith), do you use a weaker or stronger dilution?

Mark Layne · Jan 15, 2007

t_nunn said:
Mark, when you say "turbo-fix up effect" are you talking about the bleaching that occurs in rapid fix? If so, does alkaline fix get around this problem? The problem I've had with Ilford papers in lith (and I'm not sure if I tried Ilford WT or not, but I think I have) is that it takes forever in the developer and ends up with a really nasty peppered look to it. My normal dilution is 1:19 (Maco Superlith), do you use a weaker or stronger dilution?

This effect is where the paper in the developer looks milky and underdeveloped especially in the shadows so you keep on developing and when you put the paper in the fix you suddenly have a print that is hopelessly gone past and plugged up shadows. It usually occurs with massive overexposure to get nice highlight colour, and the solution is to cut back developing time.
I have found that it is very difficult to judge Ilford WT in the developer, so I resort to timing the development after a little trial, and the results can be rewarding. A beautiful ivory highlight may look white in the wash. I believe it is this that causes many to write off MGWT for lith, but it can really be used to emulate an 'old time' print nicely.
Polywarmtone on the other hand seems much easier to judge and it's beautiful pinks will be missed.
Fomatone MG is also beautiful but a little more salmon.
Kentona nice too but a little more gritty in the midtones.
The too developers I use are powdered Kodalith at 1+1+12 and some old DuPont Cronalith left over from my days in the printing business at 1+1+24, so it seems to depend on how potent the developer is to start with. They seem to produce much the same colour.
There is a paragraph or two in Tim's first book p61-63.
I have been told that Ilford Hypam fixer is good but havent tried it, I have been using Agfa FX3 which is alkaline(barely).
Now I need to go shovel snow and ice pellets.
Mark

timeUnit · Jan 15, 2007

Papers not mentioned yet:

Foma Fomabrom (a favorite). But try it in hot lith. It's very very slow in "standard" lith. It gives very nice clay highlights and deeeep blacks. After a little bath in Selenium the paper cools to a slight purple in the shadows and a cooler clay tone. It's really really nice!

Forte Bromofort. I'm only experimenting so far, but the results are promising. Here too is the clay tone, but more yellow. I might post a scan sometime soon.

Cheerio
Henning

Ps. I have gotten nice resluts with: Polywarmtone, Fortezo, Fomatone, Fomabrom, Bromofort, Agfa MCC (pepper dots, but looks nice anyway). Adox VarioClassic FB Matt (bleach redevelop). I use Moersch EasyLith and Maco Superlith.

Kentmere Bromide for Lith Printing?

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