KEH PayPal Dispute?

fadedpastels · Sep 28, 2020

Has anyone ever had to open a PayPal dispute against KEH? After 12 years of being a loyal returning customer and nothing but good service from them I have never had such terrible experiences even on ebay. I purchased a Mamiya 7 off the site but was unable to fully test it until after the 2 week return for a full refund time frame awaiting a lens to show up on the site to purchase so by the time I received one I unfortunately realized there was issues with it like the rangefinder being misaligned and the shutter button sticking. So I contacted them and was offered a warranty repair so I went along with it as my only option. Close to a month later I received the camera again but it had been roughed up a bit from what I assume is taking it apart for the needed repairs. Worst of all the camera isn't even firing at all now. During this time I had also received two EX condition lenses from them that had to be returned. The first one had large scratches in the rear element. The 2nd replacement lens had a fungus in it also sold in EX condition. Having contacted multiple KEH associates one being a manager with no response. I was only given the option to have another repair given the first experience I don't trust it at all and would likely be another month wait, I was also denied the warranty to be extended when asked. Having been sold a camera that was not functioning correctly from the get go it feels like pulling teeth working with this company. At this point I just want to return the camera for a refund so my question is would opening a PayPal dispute be as straight forward as with an ebay purchase? Or should I just keep working with KEH hoping my issue might be eventually resolved?

Ariston · Sep 28, 2020

I've never dealt with a PayPal dispute for any merchant. That is disappointing to hear about KEH, though. Although the quality of their rating system has declined, I have not yet had any problem returning stuff... but I've never dealt with them for repairs. I hope it all works out for you.

BradS · Sep 28, 2020

YES! Absolutely open a PayPal dispute. Do it now, before it is too late. You've made a significant good faith effort to resolve the issue with the merchant.

fadedpastels · Sep 28, 2020

BradS said:
YES! Absolutely open a PayPal dispute. Do it now, before it is too late. You've made a significant good faith effort to resolve the issue with the merchant.

Do you happen to have experience in this regard? I just worry with them being a big company not sure what kind of pull they might have. Say if I lose the dispute I might be out them even trying to repair the camera. Then Im truly left with an expensive brick.

campy51 · Sep 28, 2020

Yes open a dispute with Paypal. If that doesn't work open a dispute with your credit card if your paypal payment was linked to a credit card.

Wallendo · Sep 28, 2020

Whereas eBay assumes the buyer is always right, PayPal disputes outside of eBay, tend to involve more investigation and are less buyer-friendly, and can take a long time. My wife had an issue a Paypal merchant a few years ago that was never resolved.

What I would do is send KEH a letter, registered mail if possible, describing your issues and what you want them to do about it. If they don't take care of the problem then, you have some documentation to send to PayPal. Otherwise it is just your word against theirs. People and companies tend to respond to printed letters much more than emails and phone calls.

I doubt KEH is a "big company" with much pull at Paypal.

xya · Sep 28, 2020

if you are well documented, as it seems to be the case, open a paypal dispute. I have done so two times for items not being as described and there was no problem. as long as you can deliver proof of your complaints, paypal will be on your side. you have 180 days to do so.

cramej · Sep 28, 2020

Have you asked them to just return it since it can no longer be made satisfactory? When speaking with the manager, ask a "No" question. No is the safe answer for most people and gives them a chance to prevent a negative outcome and gives you leverage to negotiate. "Do I need to open a dispute with PayPal or my credit card to resolve this issue?" Record the phone call and say so at the beginning. Mention that you've already had to return the two lenses because they were inaccurately described and the camera is in worse condition from their repair. They don't want to deal with a dispute for either of those because it's a hassle and time consuming. If they don't meet the terms, open the dispute with PP and file a complaint with the BBB.

Hawkeye · Sep 28, 2020

Wondering if a KEH representative ever posts here? I don't think I remember any posts.

It has been years, but, I will say I once had a minor issue with KEH and they went way above and beyond my expectations with the resolution.

BradS · Sep 28, 2020

fadedpastels said:
Do you happen to have experience in this regard? I just worry with them being a big company not sure what kind of pull they might have. Say if I lose the dispute I might be out them even trying to repair the camera. Then Im truly left with an expensive brick.

First of all, I think that you really need to call KEH on the phone and, as others have said, tell them very simply that you are not satisfied and that you'd like to return the camera for a refund. I would be utterly shocked to the bone if they refused. Their whole business is predicated on customer service...That is really the only reason they are as successful as they are.

Secondly, you should open a dispute with PayPal now because...why wouldn't you? As others have already said, opening a dispute with PayPal is not a slam dunk but it is something. If you wait too long then you loose that option. Opening a dispute with PayPal will be very similar to opening a dispute with a bank Visa/MasterCard credit card. They're may ask for evidence that you have tried to resolve the issue with the merchant. They will contact the merchant. They may ask the merchant to supply evidence as well...all this takes time. KEH will very likely resolve the issue while the investigation is on going....but so what?

Lastly the size of the merchant company does not factor into the calculus...not at all.

Open a dispute with PayPal AND call KEH on the phone (do both). KEH really want you to be satisfied. The whole business is predicated on it. Don't wait...and don't give up.

shutterlight · Sep 28, 2020

It's highly unlikely that KEH employs anyone trained in servicing Mamiya 7s. Because of this, they likely have to outsource this work, and there are very few people remaining in the country (and probably the world) able to do it. The most well-known person is Bob Watkins, who owns Precision Camera Works (now based in California). I'm not sure I would trust anyone else, though I know there are people out there. At any rate, there are so few legitimate sources of service now that it's possible that you could call up various places and ask if they are contracted with KEH (and if so, whether they were sent your particular camera body).

Deleted member 88956 · Sep 28, 2020

BradS said:
First of all, I think that you really need to call KEH on the phone and, as others have said, tell them very simply that you are not satisfied and that you'd like to return the camera for a refund. I would be utterly shocked to the bone if they refused. Their whole business is predicated on customer service...That is really the only reason they are as successful as they are.

Secondly, you should open a dispute with PayPal now because...why wouldn't you? As others have already said, opening a dispute with PayPal is not a slam dunk but it is something. If you wait too long then you loose that option. Opening a dispute with PayPal will be very similar to opening a dispute with a bank Visa/MasterCard credit card. They're may ask for evidence that you have tried to resolve the issue with the merchant. They will contact the merchant. They may ask the merchant to supply evidence as well...all this takes time. KEH will very likely resolve the issue while the investigation is on going....but so what?

Lastly the size of the merchant company does not factor into the calculus...not at all.

Open a dispute with PayPal AND call KEH on the phone (do both). KEH really want you to be satisfied. The whole business is predicated on it. Don't wait...and don't give up.

There appears to be more and more evidence over last few years that those at KEH who were told to "keep the customer happy" are long gone, retired, or otherwise no longer connected to how KEH operates now. Their gear rating system has been discussed at lengths and while KEH used (pum intended) to be reliable and conservative, there is little evidence now they are who they once were. They sell more and more garbage and when they call it that, they DO mean it.

While I would certainly call KEH direct and send email prior to that call (and would not bother with registered letter as email is pretty much all the evidence one needs for this), I would still give them after that 2-3 days to commit to a solution (accept return that is and at zero cost to me). Opening a case with PayPal won't hurt anything. I'm just not sure swinging a sword in two directions at once is how I'd handle it at this point.

fadedpastels · Sep 28, 2020

Wallendo said:
Whereas eBay assumes the buyer is always right, PayPal disputes outside of eBay, tend to involve more investigation and are less buyer-friendly, and can take a long time. My wife had an issue a Paypal merchant a few years ago that was never resolved.

This is what I worry about.

xya said:
if you are well documented, as it seems to be the case, open a paypal dispute. I have done so two times for items not being as described and there was no problem. as long as you can deliver proof of your complaints, paypal will be on your side. you have 180 days to do so.

Was this with a merchant?

cramej said:
Have you asked them to just return it since it can no longer be made satisfactory? When speaking with the manager, ask a "No" question. No is the safe answer for most people and gives them a chance to prevent a negative outcome and gives you leverage to negotiate. "Do I need to open a dispute with PayPal or my credit card to resolve this issue?" Record the phone call and say so at the beginning. Mention that you've already had to return the two lenses because they were inaccurately described and the camera is in worse condition from their repair. They don't want to deal with a dispute for either of those because it's a hassle and time consuming. If they don't meet the terms, open the dispute with PP and file a complaint with the BBB.

Yes I was only offered another crack at a repair. So far no response from a manager.

BradS said:
First of all, I think that you really need to call KEH on the phone and, as others have said, tell them very simply that you are not satisfied and that you'd like to return the camera for a refund. I would be utterly shocked to the bone if they refused. Their whole business is predicated on customer service...That is really the only reason they are as successful as they are.

Open a dispute with PayPal AND call KEH on the phone (do both). KEH really want you to be satisfied. The whole business is predicated on it. Don't wait...and don't give up.

I really am shocked at how much they have fought me over this already. As a longtime returning customer why would they refuse a return one last score for them? I would have gone right back and made another purchase after the fact still and would have continued to keep throwing money at them for the foreseeable future. Just makes no sense to me.

shutterlight said:
It's highly unlikely that KEH employs anyone trained in servicing Mamiya 7s. Because of this, they likely have to outsource this work, and there are very few people remaining in the country (and probably the world) able to do it. The most well-known person is Bob Watkins, who owns Precision Camera Works (now based in California). I'm not sure I would trust anyone else, though I know there are people out there. At any rate, there are so few legitimate sources of service now that it's possible that you could call up various places and ask if they are contracted with KEH (and if so, whether they were sent your particular camera body).

I was told that they would be making the repairs in house when asked. Surprising to me as well.

Witold said:
While I would certainly call KEH direct and send email prior to that call (and would not bother with registered letter as email is pretty much all the evidence one needs for this), I would still give them after that 2-3 days to commit to a solution (accept return that is and at zero cost to me). Opening a case with PayPal won't hurt anything. I'm just not sure swinging a sword in two directions at once is how I'd handle it at this point.

I think I will give it another day or two as I await a response before I open a dispute.

removed account4 · Sep 28, 2020

KEH has changed ownership and management over the last couple of years. Since you called them and try to get a refund the old fashioned way by speaking to the manager, now go to PayPal +/or your credit card. Give them one chance todo the right thing and then have paypal escalate the case. Not only did you buy the camera from a Dealer, you had it repaired ( shoddily ) by their in-house repair facility, and got products that were obviously not in the condition advertised. They have declined from what it seems. I used to buy from them regularly, great prices products and service. Its sad that once venture capitalists or investment bankers or whoever bought it bought it they gutted what used to be a spotless reputation, from the largest used camera store on the planet and people who INVENTED the used camera equipment grading system.
good luck with your situation!
John

BradS · Sep 28, 2020

Wallendo said:
Whereas eBay assumes the buyer is always right, PayPal disputes outside of eBay, tend to involve more investigation and are less buyer-friendly, and can take a long time. My wife had an issue a Paypal merchant a few years ago that was never resolved

fadedpastels said:
This is what I worry about.

As it stands right now, you are stuck holding the bag containing a very expensive brick. How much worse can it get?

If KEH really will not resolve this simply by you asking them then, what other recourse do you have?
Why not get PayPal and your credit card company on you side to go to bat for you? Maybe, KEH will listen to them.
It certainly cannot hurt to have these big financial institutions on your side.

If what you have reported here is true then you have a very strong case....why not pursue it?

AgX · Sep 28, 2020

shutterlight said:
It's highly unlikely that KEH employs anyone trained in servicing Mamiya 7s. Because of this, they likely have to outsource this work, and there are very few people remaining in the country (and probably the world) able to do it.

The state of the 1/4" thread bushing (assuming that it was fine before sending !) tells more about that workshop than hundred words.

In case I would have been busy commercially with that camera and it already came in with that battered bushing, I would have considered either replacing it by original spare, or milling a new slit.

fadedpastels · Sep 28, 2020

BradS said:
As it stands right now, you are stuck holding the bag containing a very expensive brick. How much worse can it get?

If KEH really will not resolve this simply by you asking them then, what other recourse do you have?
Why not get PayPal and your credit card company on you side to go to bat for you? Maybe, KEH will listen to them.
It certainly cannot hurt to have these big financial institutions on your side.

If what you have reported here is true then you have a very strong case....why not pursue it?

Looks like that's what I'll be doing, still silent on their end.

AgX said:
The state of the 1/4" thread bushing (assuming that it was fine before sending !) tells more about that workshop than hundred words.

In case I would have been busy commercially with that camera and it already came in with that battered bushing, I would have considered either replacing it by original spare, or milling a new slit.

Are you referring to the spot used for a threaded cable release? It wasn't in that condition when I first received it only after it came back from the repair. Looks like they had trouble removing it for the necessary repairs.. Also some damage inside of that area as well a cable release still screws in fine though.. Along with all around more scuffing to the body than when first received.

pentaxuser · Sep 28, 2020

jnantz said:
KEH has changed ownership and management over the last couple of years.
good luck with your situation!
John

I was going to say that a change such as has been described suggests new management. Once that happens it is no longer KEH. It might be better, as good or not as good What is clear is that the same name does not mean the same company. Users can sometimes take a while to adjust to this fact and while that is happening those consumers can be surprised and delighted or shocked and devastated.

pentaxuser

Mamiya_Repair · Sep 28, 2020

Looking at the photo of your cable release socket I can tell you that the person doing the repair did not have the proper tool to remove the socket. It needs to be removed in order to service and clean the shutter release button (a common issue) and the socket is held on very tightly. Without the correct tool you will damage it as you can see. Not a good sign.
As for KEH, a little history: KEH, INC was founded in 1979 by King Grant who was a camera enthusiast and overall nice guy who built up a successful, trusted camera business. It was sold to a New York investment firm, D Cubed, in 2013. Has had several changes in top management since then. Enough said.

fadedpastels · Sep 28, 2020

Mamiya_Repair said:
Looking at the photo of your cable release socket I can tell you that the person doing the repair did not have the proper tool to remove the socket. It needs to be removed in order to service and clean the shutter release button (a common issue) and the socket is held on very tightly. Without the correct tool you will damage it as you can see. Not a good sign.
As for KEH, a little history: KEH, INC was founded in 1979 by King Grant who was a camera enthusiast and overall nice guy who built up a successful, trusted camera business. It was sold to a New York investment firm, D Cubed, in 2013. Has had several changes in top management since then. Enough said.

Hello Bill thanks for your input. You repaired a Mamiya press lens for me almost a year ago still performing great. If only you had done the job.

mshchem · Sep 28, 2020

Mamiya_Repair said:
Looking at the photo of your cable release socket I can tell you that the person doing the repair did not have the proper tool to remove the socket. It needs to be removed in order to service and clean the shutter release button (a common issue) and the socket is held on very tightly. Without the correct tool you will damage it as you can see. Not a good sign.
As for KEH, a little history: KEH, INC was founded in 1979 by King Grant who was a camera enthusiast and overall nice guy who built up a successful, trusted camera business. It was sold to a New York investment firm, D Cubed, in 2013. Has had several changes in top management since then. Enough said.

This is very interesting. I will refrain from making this an opinion piece. Open a PayPal case, open a case with your credit card . AND call them and ask for a return.

PonySoldier1887 · Sep 28, 2020

Sadly, the whole business model for KEH continues to degrade. King Grant knew his success was predicated on trust and during his ownership I never heard of an instance where he failed to conduct business on that basis. During his tenure you could call and request information and one of his sales reps would pull the item and discuss your concerns/questions. Try that today! I would not hesitate to proceed (the appearance of the cable release socket is "ham-handed" enough to prove your point). Good luck in your efforts and thank you for bringing this forward!
Joel
(I have been doing business with them for probably 50 years - the days of "Shutterbug" - and lived within about forty miles.)

Deleted member 88956 · Sep 28, 2020

Just curious: is BBB still around in USA and operating? It was certainly another venue to add pressure on a company to resolve an issue, but last time I had to use them was around 2000. I would assume by now their reporting process would be full on-line affair.

Grim Tuesday · Sep 28, 2020

PonySoldier1887 said:
Sadly, the whole business model for KEH continues to degrade. King Grant knew his success was predicated on trust and during his ownership I never heard of an instance where he failed to conduct business on that basis. During his tenure you could call and request information and one of his sales reps would pull the item and discuss your concerns/questions. Try that today! I would not hesitate to proceed (the appearance of the cable release socket is "ham-handed" enough to prove your point). Good luck in your efforts and thank you for bringing this forward!
Joel
(I have been doing business with them for probably 50 years - the days of "Shutterbug" - and lived within about forty miles.)

The inability of their sales reps to describe the condition of the items is one of the most bizarre things I've seen in the entire used camera industry, especially coupled with their inability for the raters to accurately rate the item, or for them to even post a picture of it. It entirely rests on their reputation as accurate and conservative graders, which they earned in the early 2000s and is expounded across the internet. It seems that it is true no longer. The people who grade the item are not hugely knowledgeable anymore either, and it cuts both ways. I've gotten "ugly" items that are really in "parts" condition, and I've gotten as-is items that should be rated in BGN. My most recent find: an as-is Koni Omega Rapid which the rater at KEH must have thought had a stuck shutter release. They clearly forgot to take the dark slide out...

I do have two things to add:

1. I had to send back a BGN Hasselblad waist level finder that had a broken magnifier about 3 months ago (I don't know how they missed it...) and to their credit they fixed it right up, very competently. I do not think they farm out repairs, they have their own repair people. Combined with what Bill said above, I wouldn't trust them past simple things like my finder.

2. I've had PayPal cases opened against me on eBay. PayPal will almost always side with the buyer. In my case, the person sent back a lens without getting return authorization from me, threw it into a box with only a little bubble wrap, took off the tripod collar and put it in front of the lens and scratched up the front element. We're talking like a $500 lens. I told eBay that, they sided with me and told me I could give a partial refund less $100 for the damage to the front element. Buyer opened a case against me on PayPal and won, despite my proof that he damaged the lens. PayPal told me as long as I admitted that I was in physical possession of the original object at the end, they were siding with him no matter what and gave a full refund.

For KEH, I would threaten the case first and insist that they take it back for a full refund. If they don't go with PayPal. They will probably side with you. Your story is one of the most egregious I've heard to date with KEH. I hope they resolve it without a charge back.

xya · Sep 29, 2020

fadedpastels said:
Was this with a merchant?

yes it was, both times.

KEH PayPal Dispute?

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