KEH kit: RB67 or RZ67?

I'm going to buy my first medium format camera, and I've narrowed the choices to either an RB67 Pro S or RZ67. A "BGN" condition kit with back and lens is under $500 for either camera. Reviews on the 110mm lens bundled with the RZ are very good and this interests me very much. I haven't read much on the 127 C lens for the RB, however. I've read through a lot of threads here for the last few weeks on medium format cameras, but I'd still like a little more general and personal information from you people who already own these systems. For those who own the RB, is there any reason you wish you had the RZ? For those who own the RZ, is there any reason you wish you had the RB? Anyone have any experience with bargain-grade gear from KEH? How do the RZ lenses in the KEH kits compare to the C lenses of the RB kits? I'd rather not use ebay, as most sellers selling cheaply enough for me to choose them over KEH don't offer returns.

Any information or opinions at all are fully welcome.

What I will be photographing: Night photography (another reason the fast 2.8 attracts my attention), abstracts, landscapes and still life setups.

There are three great reasons to consider the rz: the 50 uld; the 110/2.8 that you mentioned; and if you plan to use a digital back, the rz permits communication between lens and back.

There are three great reasons to consider the rb: the 6x8 back (there isn't one for the rz); the lack of batteries; and the generally lower prices of all the rb lenses (including the KLs which are the best), which by the way can also be used on a rz later if you do decide to get one for digital reasons.

I have two rb pro SDs and love 'em, and I got an rz pro 2 specifically for the 50 uld and the 110/2.8.

P.S. with its lack of batteries, the rb is very well suited to long night exposures. For the other subjects you mention, I'd say that it's a draw.

Recently, I too have been feeling pangs of Mamiya RB/RZ 6x7 lust, so this thread is quite opportune .

In addition to Keith's observations, I've also noted that the RZ's power winder options look remarkably small and straightforward, especially considering the rest of the camera.

Any thoughts about the relative advantages of the 120 6x7 backs? I see that at least some of the RZ backs have two frame counters, to enhance visibility.

Also, one thing I am not clear about is whether or not all of the KEH cameras include the rotating back adapter, and whether there are different versions of those adapters (within each series).

Matt

Some people never get around the double action of the unpowered rb backs. I admit I do find it confusing to go between that and the powered backs. I would advise to stick to one type and all will be well. Build-wise, though, all the newer backs are super. I do wish there were a lighter, travelable *un*powered 6x8 back.

About the rotating back, you'd better verify with KEH that you're getting one. And it's one of the few parts of the camera that can actually be damaged, so make sure the coupling is good.

I went through the exact same decision process about a year ago when I bought my BGN grade RB67 from KEH, with WLF, revolving back, 127mm f/3.8 C lens, and 120 Pro-S back. Later on I added a 65mm f/4.5 C lens. I was thinking about the 110mm f/2.8 lens and an RZ, but for what I do I don't *really* need the extra speed and I have found that the 127mm lens is very nice. I almost always use the camera on a tripod and f/8 or f/11 is my aperture most of the time, even for night shots. I ended up going for the RB67 due to the completely mechanical operation. My bargain grade camera and lens are almost spotless; the only issues are that the leatherette is peeling a little and there's a little wear on the controls.

I have an RB67. It was a BGN grade from KEH also. I gotten two lenses with it the 50 C and 180 C both BGN grade. All look good. I like the mechanical operation also. I always use a tripod. I'm sure you love either RZ or the RB.

Jeff

C-330 and don't look back.

moouers said:

For those who own the RB, is there any reason you wish you had the RZ?

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No.

I agree with all that keithwms wrote and would like to add one thing in favor of the RZ: more stuff available in the used department. While stuff for RB is mostly cheaper, you have much more choice in the RZ department and still can use RB lenses if your budget is really tight. I do regret the lack of an 6x8 back for my RZ, though.

The 6x8 back makes a big difference to me.

I've had both the RB and the RZ Pro II.

there are some things that prompted me to get the RZ. they include:
1. electronic leaf shutter. these are lighter than their mechanical RB brethren
2. 110 2.8 Wonderful lens, bokeh is stupendous, my #1 go-to lens for this camera
3. digital capability(digi backs). an eventual thing. in my case, since I'm a photo major, I'll have to shoot digi one day, and electronic shutters from what I've read stay "truer" over time/extended use vs mechanical shutters due to less moving parts
4. power winder. I use this almost all the time. Very handy, takes AA's, and winds the roll on/off for you at the touch of a button (wind on push-button/wind-off auto)
5. APO lenses. I can't afford the 210 APO, but my friend has it, and for tight in headshots, or where detail/color accuracy is of the utmost importance(think transparencies in studio), this can be a very useful tool. I believe there is also a 250 and 350mm APO lenses as well.
6. prism's are MUCH lighter. I like to use a prism, since much of my rz's life is spent on a tripod. Some complain about the prism's being dim and un-inviting, I say the opposite. With a brightscreen in your camera, its totally fine.
7. NO ROTATING BACK MECHANISM!!! The mechanism is built into every RZ back, with the round ring(presumably from the mount plate(like the RB) built into the camera body itself.
8. PRO II backs, dual windows for seeing which frame # you're on. To many this isn't a big deal, to me it was. I shoot mostly in the vertical format.
9. RZ lenses. Some say that the glass is the same as the RB ones. Bollocks IMO. You get KL(best in RB lineup of glass) in EVERY lens in the RZ range. 50 ULD is superb. Zero distortion that I can see, and super sharp, not too contrasty, great modern coatings, and free floating element(ULD only!).
10. You can use RB lenses(although you can't use the scale on the side which gives you hyperfocal distance. You HAVE to use the ground glass to focus.
11. PRO II model offers 1/2 stop shutter speeds. If you shoot chromes, and want them 'just right', this can be a great tool. For digital use, it is an almost need IMO.

Downsides to RZ from what I can tell

1. Little switch on side to let you rotate the back. On the RB you can just rotate as you like, on the RZ, there's a little switch to flip. Can be annoying sometimes, most times though, its fine.
2. Batteries. You'll need a little PX28L(or equivalent) for the RZ bodies(Pro, Pro II/IID[digital-re-designed newest version]). If this goes dead, your camera does as well. I've shot more than 100 rolls of 120/220 through my RZ body since putting a new battery in there. ALWAYS keep a backup, since there isn't a battery meter in the camera .
3. Electronic bits and bobs. These mean more expensive repairs. Generally YOU can't do it yourself. Just sayin, I'm not the adventurous type to go diggin' around in my camera. I'm not built that way. I'm a photographer, not a camera technician .
4. Mechanical shutters. The RZ has a 1/400th mechanical setting(orange dot on power switch. This is for when you have no extra battery IN-STUDIO, where shutter speed doesn't really matter(with most strobes at least). The RB is the camera I'd recommend if you like to do long exposures(longer than 30s, my rz starts beeping for some reason). Also, mechanical reliability is better in cold weather from my experience. I haven't taken my RZ into a snowy, cold environment, but my RB took 15def F perfectly fine in the Eastern Sierras last winter. Mechanical reliability is a good thing sometimes
5. Price of used RZ gear vs. RB gear(backs and lenses especially). RB stuff is much cheaper to get started with than RZ equivalents.

other than that, there are probably other things I could nit-pick on, but I won't bore you. The RZ seems to be a little lighter in weight than the RB(more plastic in place of formerly metal components).

If I still had my RB, I'd probably use it more than the RZ to be honest, since most of my stuff I'm shooting right now is longer exposures(1-5 min). But oh well, whoever it was on ebay I sold it to is hopefully getting some good use out of it. I know I did !

-Dan


EDIT: if you plan on using a digital back one day, either camera will work. However I'd go for the RB67 Pro-SD(most recent RB model) if you go for an RB67. Mamiya/Leaf/Sinar all make adapter plates for BOTH the RB and RZ cameras. So you can adapt a back to either one.

DanielStone said:

APO lenses. I can't afford the 210 APO, but my friend has it, and for tight in headshots, or where detail/color accuracy is of the utmost importance(think transparencies in studio), this can be a very useful tool. I believe there is also a 250 and 350mm APO lenses as well.

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I have the 210 KL apo; it is superb. And... all the RB lenses can be used on the RZ- all speeds are available, you just have to remember to set them on the lens. The full suite of apo lenses is available in the RB line and, at least when bought new, the prices are significantly lower.

I've been looking at this myself and I'm leaning hard towards the RB for my investment. One of the big reasons that I don't think I've seen mentioned yet is repair. RB is 100% mechanical, and you can find people willing to CLA & repair pretty readily. It seems to be harder & more expensive to find qualified people to lay hands on the RZ for repair & maintenance from what I can find.

Oh and as for one of the older posts... I've got two C330's plus one big one tattooed on my arm. I love the C330. But for some content types an SLR would come in handy (like using gradient filters or polarizers for example)

I have an RZ and see no benefit in getting an RB other than saving a couple of dollars, which is pointless because you'll spend the camera's value in film in a year or so - much less if you shoot chromes! For a start, the better lenses (110/2.8, 50 ULD) are only on the RZ and if you really wanted to be cheap, you can use RB lenses anyway. The RZ is no smaller but it is lighter, which is nice if you're backpacking it. The electronic shutter will never ever drift, unlike a clockwork shutter, so while it may be harder to find someone to adjust the shutter that's irrelevant because it never needs adjusting.

RZ has T-mode exposures, which means you can do zero-battery-drain long exposures. The beeping after 60s is only in B mode, where the shutter is held open electronically. If you need more than 60s from mirror-up to end of exposure, use T mode instead where the shutter is held open mechanically. I regularly use this for 2-10 minute exposures and have a few that are about an hour for star-trails and the like.

Batteries. Whatever - they last for a hundred or more rolls each and cost a fraction of a roll of film. I have three spares in my camera bag and am still on the battery my camera came with! And there is a battery meter in the camera: you stick the darkslide in and press the release, the red LED will either glow solidly (good battery) or pulse (low battery).

Get the RZ. The 110 f2.8 is fabulous.

polyglot said:

I have an RZ and see no benefit in getting an RB other than saving a couple of dollars, which is pointless because you'll spend the camera's value in film in a year or so - much less if you shoot chromes! For a start, the better lenses (110/2.8, 50 ULD) are only on the RZ and if you really wanted to be cheap, you can use RB lenses anyway. The RZ is no smaller but it is lighter, which is nice if you're backpacking it. The electronic shutter will never ever drift, unlike a clockwork shutter, so while it may be harder to find someone to adjust the shutter that's irrelevant because it never needs adjusting.

RZ has T-mode exposures, which means you can do zero-battery-drain long exposures. The beeping after 60s is only in B mode, where the shutter is held open electronically. If you need more than 60s from mirror-up to end of exposure, use T mode instead where the shutter is held open mechanically. I regularly use this for 2-10 minute exposures and have a few that are about an hour for star-trails and the like.

Batteries. Whatever - they last for a hundred or more rolls each and cost a fraction of a roll of film. I have three spares in my camera bag and am still on the battery my camera came with! And there is a battery meter in the camera: you stick the darkslide in and press the release, the red LED will either glow solidly (good battery) or pulse (low battery).

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Is all this true with the RZ as well as the RZ II? I don't have the money to buy the RZ II but can probably swing the RZ off KEH.

I saw a deal elsewhere for an RB67 Pro SD with a 127 lens (not the C or K/L model, just plain ol' 127) for $449 and was considering it...still am.

Oh, and thank you everyone for your responses. I read every one and some many times!

I have an RZ not RZII and all I wrote is true for the camera I have. The II gives a second fine-focusing knob (completely unnecessary IMHO since your focusing accuracy is limited by the screen not your fingers) and half-stop speeds. The II back has a second frame-counter window but no "exposed" red tab in the frame counter; the backs are interchangeable anyway (I have a I and a II). There are some prism compatibility issues but the RZ metered prism will still give exposures within 1/6 stop.

I paid $370 for my first RZ kit: body, WLF, 120-6x7 back and 110/2.8 so to me, $450 for the RB kit with poorer lens seems a ripoff.

moouers said:

For those who own the RB, is there any reason you wish you had the RZ?

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Anothe no here..... But I have never handled an RZ.... don't tempt me!

Seriously, the RB has everything I want. I have 50mm, 90mm and 180mm lenses, two film backs, a waist level finder and a left hand grip - I think that's all I need.


Steve.

Thanks again for all the replies, everyone. I've made a purchase of a used RB67 system from a member here (photomem) and can't wait to receive it. Only problem now is that I'll have to upgrade my enlarger to one that can handle medium format....

moouers said:

Only problem now is that I'll have to upgrade my enlarger to one that can handle medium format....

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The funny thing is, I did it the other way round. I had an enlarger which could handle 6x7 negatives so I started looking for a 6x7 camera. Not the most logical of reasons I know.


Steve.

Steve Smith said:

Anothe no here..... But I have never handled an RZ.... don't tempt me!

Seriously, the RB has everything I want. I have 50mm, 90mm and 180mm lenses, two film backs, a waist level finder and a left hand grip - I think that's all I need.


Steve.

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Steve, you can't possibly have everything you want with the RB! I have the 50mm, 65mm, 90mm, 140mm macro and a 250mm KL, a Pro S and Pro SD and four backs, a multi-angle grip and I still find myself on that damn auction site...

I have an RZ, because it came along. I was shopping for an RB at the time, however.

Both have their benefits. Keith Williams listed them. Eventually, I would like an RB as well, for one BIG reason: the 6x8 option combined with the shift lens (if the shift lens will work with the 6x8 format.....). Why they got rid of this in the RZ, I just do not know. The 110mm 2.8 is reason enough for the RZ, IMO. Stellar lens, and so cheap. I also love the 210 APO, though this may be available for the RB as well, as a K/L lens. You certainly get very slick modern optics in all cases with the RZ, and you can always use the older, lower-tech early RB glass (the character of which I love for portraits and all sorts of other things) on an RZ, but can't go the other way around.

I'd start with whichever one happens to come along in a killer deal as a kit.

My biggest problem with the RB and the RZ? They are not 6x9! If it was the same exact camera in 6x9 format, it would truly be heaven sent!

So, how do you like my kit? He got it form me for a B&J 4x5 Press Camera. Both backs work fine. Just the one looks really rough. I think there's a roll with an exposure on it. Don't worry about it.

According to the UPS tracking number, I'll be able to tell you on Tuesday