KEH has a new website!

Hatchetman said:

The website is really annoying. I'm not sure what their motivation could possibly be.

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The owners son learned how to do a website?

I'm floored that they reply to me, a customer of at least 10 years who has bought many items from them, with a basic canned answer that pretty much says go blow.

I was pretty dumbfounded by their curt response as well. Disappointing to say the least.

I sent them the link to this thread, they replied:

"Thank you for sending the link in case
we were not already aware of that forum (we were).
KEH monitors web forums and considers that feedback also."

Roger Cole said:

...Why is everything newer worse?

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There are two reasons new "stuff" is developed, changed and marketed. First, to improve functionality/performance/usability. Second, because, other than the basics of food, shelter, etc., nobody "needs" most of what's offered for sale. Change for the sake of change, whether to actual products or the mechanisms used to peddle them, in the hopes of selling more "stuff," is the norm.

The problem is that while actual improvements occur early in the life cycle of a technology, at some point an optimum design is reached. That is typically a real sweet spot which tends to delight users. However, the second motivating factor then comes into play. Being compelled to pursue changes, the marketing system can't help but screw up what was optimum. And so, you get ----- worse.

Roger Cole said:

Why is everything newer worse?

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I am with you, Roger. It's not just the poor KEH website, which used to be good - it's almost everything.

For one of my sports cars, there are over 10 pages in the manual covering the key. The key! The separate manual for the radio is so thick it makes the old IBM 360 Principles of Operation look like a quick light read. A simple key and radio from 1966 would've been more than sufficient.

I did get a rather nicer, if no more helpful, reply back from Dan Orchard:


Good morning Roger Cole,

Yes, we monitor forums and internet comments about KEH Camera and consider
the information along with feedback from our customers. Thank you
for sending the apug link in case were not already aware though.

Change is always difficult and I admit that learning how to use the new KEH website
was a bit difficult for me as well, at least at first.

Now that I understand the methodology of “search and refine”, finding
what I need is faster and easier than ever. It is all in how you ask in the search bar.

The search engine no longer relies on just the first word, and admittedly the initial the results
are often too large or inclusive, however that is the beauty of “refine” after you get results.

And there are categories you can select that will let you browse much like the old menu-based site did.

We are continuing to add features (search by mount is up and working now) as we continue to listen to
feedback from our customers (thank you!). We truly believe that in the long run, those customers who will
patiently learn how the new site works will wonder how they lived without the new features.

If you continue to have difficulty finding what you are looking for, please call our Sales Department
for assistance, as our Sales Professionals are standing by to assist you from 8:30am to 9:00pm EST
Monday through Friday, and 10am to 4pm EST on Saturdays.

Thank you for your comments, and your patience, we will look forward to hearing from you,
and hopefully earning your business for years to come!

Sincerely,

Dan
Dan Orchard
Director of Customer Service
KEH Camera

Direct Line (Omitted from posting but he apparently sends it freely)

ozphoto said:

My favourite part of the old site, was being able to select the product line and then search through that. Now I have to scroll down or go back to the start to check out different parts of the same system.

Before: Medium Format>Bronica>GS1>select your wants (lenses, hoods, backs etc); if you wanted to backtrack, the side menu allowed for this.

Now: Medium Format Lenses or Medium Format and you can't search the other from within the results - bleh!

Keh, if you're there, re-instate the drop down menu on the LHS: Shop By Category. Currently it is a useless heading that does zilch. It's a wonderful example of form over function; redesigning a website is a great idea to improve your online presence, but why make it more time-consuming to navigate, when the original site had excellent features that could be integrated without losing functionality and usability.

Apple had the right idea with the iPod - nothing more than 2 (or was it 3?) clicks away from the home screen. Make it easy to use and the customers will come; not a convoluted mess that drives them away.

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Try shop by brand from the front page.

I really dislike the new site. It's more a scattergun approach than before, and much slower to home in on any specific used lens or camera body
I might be seeking.

The shop by mount feature makes a big difference if you are looking for bodies or lenses.

But it doesn't come into play if you are looking for accessories - and it is accessories that interest me the most.

I guess I am being punished for using cameras from a manufacturer (Mamiya) that has a variety of products that serve a lot of format and functional needs.

"...those customers who will patiently learn how the new site works..."

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Mr. Orchard, you do realize that when the benchmark metric in play is Internet Time, this right here may prove to be a deal breaker for a significant number of the site's regular users?

At a more fundamental level, change is only good when it improves on the status quo. And in this case that translates into improvements in the end-user perceptions regarding suitability of use.

The first rule of engineering is to do no harm. Meaning, things should not be worse after than they were before. When this is so, no pleas for patience are necessary.

Just sayin'...



Ken

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Verschlimmbesserung

Verschlimmbesserung

An attempted improvement that makes things worse than they already were. This is a very common German expression which has no good translation in English. It is pronounced "Fair-shleam-besser-oonk" (schlimmer = worse, besser = better).

Roger Cole said:

We are continuing to add features (search by mount is up and working now) as we continue to listen to
feedback from our customers (thank you!).

Dan Orchard
Director of Customer Service
KEH Camera

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This is the kind if omission that has made the new site so unusable! Without being able to select by mount type, I found myself slogging through a bunch of irrelevant stuff, attempting to glean what I was looking for, before saying to hell with it. Then I heard about clicking on "Classic KEH", and just went there. You should not be learning this stuff from your customers. It should have been figured out before it ever went up (even as an alpha trial version).

cowanw said:

Try shop by brand from the front page.

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Aha!!! You nailed it - thanks a bunch.

Refine? It's easier to perform more steps for the same results? Ludicrous! A working component should NOT be replaced until the new one has the vast majority of bugs worked out.

There is no reason a search for a "Bronica" back should turn up random "Pentax" items, especially intermingled. Not even in an "Alpha" version. It's simply a way to put more items in front of our eyes.

If I want Pentax I'll search for it. If it is thrown in a separate and completely unrelated search, I know why, and chose to NOT do business with an establishment like that. I also cannot recommend it to people who trust my opinion.

This certainly has been a deal-breaker for me. In the time it took to get the same results as the old site, I was able to try alternate vendors without these issues. So, when I want something, I can spend all of that time on each attempt, or just go to the alternates. I value my time and will not reward wastes of it with my money. This stance has served me quite well in life.

It almost seems as if they were sold a bill of goods and have to justify it. I work in IT, and my department does this often (despite input from those of us who actually have to deal with it).

I had given feedback through the site when it first went live (not with the email I've used for purchases, though). I took great care to format my message. In the response I received, my quoted feedback was one large paragraph, no line breaks or anything. It was a mess. That was a fair sign of how "good" the new system is. Also, it turns out I was put on the mailing list simply for giving feedback!

I honestly don't see the problem, I always had trouble finding stuff on their site and I thought it was horrid, now it's easy to find things and much easier to navigate, I think people are just averse to change.

Patiently learning how to use the site...

Uhh... Somebody must have hired themselves a "consultant".

I might patiently learn a new photographic process. But to spend my time patiently learning how to navigate a cumbersome web site, not hardly...

At the end of my patient process is the same product I can find elsewhere, easier.

I do appreciate KEH appreciating my right to choose. In the spirit of reciprocity, I appreciate their right to make really bad decisions.

StoneNYC said:

I honestly don't see the problem, I always had trouble finding stuff on their site and I thought it was horrid, now it's easy to find things and much easier to navigate, I think people are just averse to change.

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Try a search for a film back for a Mamiya RB67 and see how much extra stuff you have to wade through.

I do think their old site had functional problems, but it was well organized for those who knew what they were looking for.

The new site is better functioning, but its search function and organization is best shited for those who don't know what they are looking for - it is best for browzing.

Not wanting to spend more than twice the time for the same end result is not aversive to change, and I feel that suggesting it is might be a bit dismissive. Returning unrelated results is not merely change, it is poor execution. It does not serve me well. The site looks better, but functions worse for me; two changes (and there are more if you know what to look for).

I don't go to KEH (or any site) thinking I have X amount of money I want to spend, so what do they have. Instead, I look for specific items I need. The old site was not much to look at, but I could find what I needed almost instantly, without even having to use the search function.

I have limited time in a day, and many things I want to do. They are, after all, a for-profit business. I don't have time to wait around for a business to get its act together when there are vendors whose service fits my needs now. If they fix things, and it becomes better than the old site, fine - but it's too late. I found alternatives that are better for me than the old site was. Had the new site been at least as functional as the old, I'd not have looked for, let alone found, these alternatives.

MattKing said:

Try a search for a film back for a Mamiya RB67 and see how much extra stuff you have to wade through.

I do think their old site had functional problems, but it was well organized for those who knew what they were looking for.

The new site is better functioning, but its search function and organization is best shited for those who don't know what they are looking for - it is best for browzing.

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Yes, the search function appears to have a glitch; if there isn't anything that matches that, it should give you a "Nothing Found" result, instead it lists anything and everything that seems to have the word "back" in it.

Searching Mamiya RB67 appears to give all the RB67 gear they have in stock - but with the error showing above, you do have to wonder??

Edit: I actually decided to do a search with "Mamiya RB67" and surprise, surprise, it actually spat out RB backs as well (along with a truckload of useless non-RB gear!!!!); definitely a search engine problem because it doesn't show them when you simply search for Mamiya RB67.

Compare below:

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The new site is absolutely abysmal. I used to enjoy "browsing" the old site, looking for gear that I know that there might be a chance I'd snap and buy. This new site completely CRUSHES that urge and I find myself looking at KEH's site 90% less than I used to. It is an absolutely soulless experience.

Really a sad state of affairs.

On the plus side, I REALLY dont need more gear.

I just sent an email about the Search Bar problems - maybe they'll get someone onto it to fix the glitches it obviously has.

StoneNYC said:

I honestly don't see the problem, I always had trouble finding stuff on their site and I thought it was horrid, now it's easy to find things and much easier to navigate, I think people are just averse to change.

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Respectfully Stone, I think you must be smoking crack.

(I am joking of course, but the old one was much, much easier to use. Hell, I even liked the look of it better but I think the looks of computer interfaces in general have been going downhill since Win2k.)

StoneNYC said:

I honestly don't see the problem, I always had trouble finding stuff on their site and I thought it was horrid, now it's easy to find things and much easier to navigate, I think people are just averse to change.

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Ever try looking for Contax/Yashica gear in the new system? It's a joke. In the old system? Easy as one could imagine.

Yeah, I'm averse to change. Change that ruins your ability to properly find things.

Maybe they hired Facebook to redesign their site. Until yesterday, I frequented their classic site regularly. Now that it's gone, it's not worth my time. I'll find what I need on eBay or through Adorama (or locally, for that matter - just picked up a factory AI'd 20/3.5 Nikkor-UD for $210 from Glazer's Camera in Seattle). I'd do B&H, but their prices are much higher on used gear, maybe not as much as the photo-arsenal guys seem to be on eBay, but up there.

-J

MattKing said:

its search function and organization is best shited for those who don't know what they are looking for - it is best for browzing.

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Although never likely to buy from KEH, I did browse the site (both new and old versions) a few times and have to agree the new one is exactly as Matt has typ(o)ed