Keeping paper developer

digiconvert · Jan 28, 2006

Hello all, I have been trying darkroom work for about a month noe and am beginning to get some sort of system going that allows me to produce reasonable prints more or less consistently- still a long way to go though.
I had a look at the Nova processors and have seen a s/h duolab, the idea of being able to do just one or two prints in an evening but not waste chemicals appeals to me but I would like some opinions on the followin since the outlay for these is rather more than a new set of dishes .
-Anyone use a Nova or duolab ? (I only want B&W so temperature control is not important). Do they find they save time and or chemicals ?
-Can I just pour my developer into a bottle at the end of a print session and keep it cool and dark, like I do with fixer? If this is the case I can't see the point of the Nova/Duolab.

Any opinions/rants/beliefs are more than welcome.

Thanks ; CJB

fhovie · Jan 28, 2006

I don't think you should mess around with something like that while you are in the learning stages. You can tell a lot about your process while the print is developing - i know that with my chems - the image should be well on the way after 20 seconds - if not - the developer is going down or my exposure is way off. Watching the image come up will "train your brain" you will learn intuitive stuff that will come in handy. If the image is too contrasty - you can pluck it out of the developer just as the image comes in an put it in a water bath. It is good to be close to the process.

MurrayMinchin · Jan 28, 2006

digiconvert said:
Any opinions/rants/beliefs are more than welcome.

You asked for it

I keep my metol/glycin print developer working solution in the bag that boxed wine comes in, the one with the removeable brown spigot. Cheaper than a Nova and fun to empty the wine They are light proof, and as far as I can tell oxygen isn't getting in either because the stock solution lasts for 8 months. Set up time is about 15 minutes as there's nothing to mix, and clean up time is the same because it all (fixers too) go back in the bags.

One consideration, if you want to repeat a print you made weeks ago when the developer was fresh, will be how to account for the developer slowing down a bit as it ages, gets used, or for temperature variations. Because of the slow emergence time (ET) of my developer, I use the ET of the negatives clear edge at a standard enlarger height, aperture, and exposure...it helps to know when the light source has stabilized. When fresh at 72 degrees the ET is 42 seconds, then it slows and stabilizes at 48 seconds forever. When it gets to 50 seconds, which can take a month or more, I toss it.

My days of spending 12 hours in the darkroom are loooong gone...4 1/2 year old children can do that to you ...so I needed to come up with a plan for fast set ups, fast clean ups, short printing sessions, and the ability to start working on a print from where I left it, even if it was from a week ago.

Anyways...works for me.

Murray

P.S. Should have added that the ET gets multiplied by a factor of 4.5 (or so, it varies for different images) to find the new development time.

Dave Miller · Jan 28, 2006

The Nova chemicals are formulated to last well in their slot processors were surface area exposed to the air is minimal, therefore oxidisation is almost eliminated. Using these same chemicals in open trays, and pouring them into and out of bottles guarantees that the developer will become oxygenated. Which is not good. Used as designed, the chemicals in a Nova will last several months, longer if used frequently, because the chemicals are carried through the slots to waste simply because they remain on the paper. The system is designed for convenience, insomuch that it’s always available and requires the minimum of setting out or clearing away; unlike trays. I think the model you refer to has the added advantage of the use of a Jobo drum, but is restricted to 10x8, although that’s not a disadvantage to start with.

srs5694 · Jan 28, 2006

digiconvert said:
Can I just pour my developer into a bottle at the end of a print session and keep it cool and dark, like I do with fixer?

I've done this with Dektol and E-72 (a phenidone/vitamin C Dektol variant) with no obvious problems; however, I've always ditched the chemistry after about 2-4 sessions like this, just to be on the safe side.

I've also done this with DS-14, but it's designed to be used in a replenished system, so my variant technique with it was to top up the bottle with the replenisher after each session. After going through a liter of replenisher (replenishing an initial 1 liter of DS-14), I noticed no change in my prints, but the developer was getting a little bit yellow, so I ditched it. I haven't made up any more yet, but I'll do so soon and use it in the same way.

Note that bad print developer isn't nearly as serious as bad film developer, since you can always redo a print that was ruined because of bad developer. If you want to be sure the developer's not going bad on you, try making a reference print with fresh developer and redo that print periodically, using identical times, filtrations, etc., as the developer ages. If you start seeing changes, then chances are they're due to the developer going bad.

MurrayMinchin · Jan 28, 2006

srs5694 said:
If you want to be sure the developer's not going bad on you, try making a reference print with fresh developer and redo that print periodically, using identical times, filtrations, etc., as the developer ages.

That's really good advice. If you pick an image with a full range of print values, you can also use the same image to test other paper and developers in the future.

Murray

Bruce Appel · Jan 28, 2006

Along these same lines, I would love to find a developer that has the keeping characteristics of Rodinol, HC-110, PC TEA or the like. I print irregularly, and find I end up wasting a lot of stock solution, simply because it goes bad before I use it all up. I would love to find a concentrated, long lasting stock solution.

avandesande · Jan 28, 2006

Ethol LPD

dancqu · Jan 28, 2006

digiconvert said:
...the idea of being able to do just one or two prints
in an evening but not waste chemicals appeals to me

In order to save space and alow room for making large
prints I adopted the single-tray processing method.
Rather than pour chemistry in and out, in and out,
I developed a total one-shot method.

Minimal solution volumes coupled with more than usual
dilutions yields good chemical milage. With no need to
save solutions there are no concerns of their potency.
A Big bonus is the quick single bath archival fix.

The method is similar to one-shot rotary processing
but with a tray rather than a tube. If I knew what
chemistry you are using I could make
some suggestions. Dan

jeroldharter · Jan 28, 2006

I second dancqu.

Jack Lusted · Jan 29, 2006

I use a Nova Slot processor and for me it has been a 100% good experience. I use Ilford Multigrade developer which in trays lasts for 24 hours. With the Nova it certainly lasts for at least 2 days, after 2 days I drain off half the dev and replenish with fresh.

The two great things about the Nova IMHO are its compact size and its temperature control. The lesser advantages (although they are certainly significant) are quick set-up/pack-up and chemical economy.

Not being able to see the print come up in the dev is a pity, but years ago when I used trays I mucked up more prints than I saved by attempting to 'rescue' them by whipping them out of the dev quick!

As an amateur with wife and four little ones and limited darkroom space I can definitely say that the Nova has made darkroom work possible for me. Trays would not work in my current situation so without the Nova I would simply have to forgo the joys of the darkroom.

Hope that helps,

Jack

srs5694 · Jan 29, 2006

It just occurred to me that another possibility, if you want to conserve developer and if you are worried about aerating it by pouring it in and out of bottles, is to use a color developing drum. As with a Nova processor, you wouldn't be able to see the print develop, but color drums typically require little solution (~70ml for an 8x10 in mine), and you'd probably use the developer one-shot or possibly re-use it just a couple of times. I've not tried using my color drums for B&W work, but I may use my big 11x14 drum the next time I want 11x14 B&W prints.

That said, I'm not sure what would be required in terms of adapting development times and re-use of developer to do B&W in a color drum. Of course, you'd also have to buy the drum. A motorized roller base is also handy, but not absolutely required. On the downside, drums require careful drying between uses, which really slows down darkroom work.

pentaxuser · Jan 29, 2006

Dave Miller said:
The Nova chemicals are formulated to last well in their slot processors were surface area exposed to the air is minimal, therefore oxidisation is almost eliminated. Using these same chemicals in open trays, and pouring them into and out of bottles guarantees that the developer will become oxygenated. Which is not good. Used as designed, the chemicals in a Nova will last several months, longer if used frequently, because the chemicals are carried through the slots to waste simply because they remain on the paper. The system is designed for convenience, insomuch that its always available and requires the minimum of setting out or clearing away; unlike trays. I think the model you refer to has the added advantage of the use of a Jobo drum, but is restricted to 10x8, although thats not a disadvantage to start with.

I'd echo everything Dave has said and add that it is possible to see what is happening if you lift the print out of the slot just long enough to observe. The print has a film of developer on it for the duration of the inspection and is then lifted or submerged again.

I cannot think of any other system in which you can walk in, expose and print just one shot and literally walk out again in no more than the time it takes for exposure, dev, stop, fix. Wash can be left to itself. No prep and no clear up except putting the tubes back on top of the slots(say 5 secs)

The one disadvantage is that you're restricted to a certain size so if an appreciable amount of your work was say 12 x 16 then you'd need this size of a processor and this is more expensive. If 12 x 16 was only an occasional requirement then trays this size and the smaller Nova processor might be the better bet.

Pentaxuser

Bob F. · Jan 29, 2006

The Nova slot "processors" have several advantages.

* Developers keep longer: Ansco 130 and Ilford MG developer and Neutol WA I know from experience will last until exhausted - or at least 2 months, whichever comes first.

* Less smell: the small surface area means less pong - use no odour (citric acid based) stop and low odour fixer and there's almost no odour at all.

* Speed: no need to wash up trays after each session.

* Size: takes up less space than one tray.

I agitate by lifting the print most of the way out of the developer so seeing what is going on is not an issue.

Keep track of stop bath and fixer exhaustion too.

If you use fibre paper, make up 25-50% more chemicals than you need to fill the slot so you can top it up as the fibre paper absorbs the chems (especially the developer). RC does not absorb nearly as much.

The only down side I can see is the relatively higher cost.

Cheers, Bob.

Dave Miller · Jan 29, 2006

srs5694 said:
It just occurred to me that another possibility, if you want to conserve developer and if you are worried about aerating it by pouring it in and out of bottles, is to use a color developing drum. As with a Nova processor, you wouldn't be able to see the print develop, but color drums typically require little solution (~70ml for an 8x10 in mine), and you'd probably use the developer one-shot or possibly re-use it just a couple of times. I've not tried using my color drums for B&W work, but I may use my big 11x14 drum the next time I want 11x14 B&W prints.

That said, I'm not sure what would be required in terms of adapting development times and re-use of developer to do B&W in a color drum. Of course, you'd also have to buy the drum. A motorized roller base is also handy, but not absolutely required. On the downside, drums require careful drying between uses, which really slows down darkroom work.

I feel it may add to the debate to say that I do almost all my printing using drums or an orbital processor; I don’t feel the need to develop film by inspection so don’t see why I should have to inspect a print whilst it is brewing. Any manipulation required is carried out either in camera, or under the enlarger. I find this approach gives me the consistency I require. I normally work in the paper range 6x4 to 16x12, r/c or fibre, but can handle up to 20 x 24 without any problem.

jeroldharter · Jan 29, 2006

Bob F. said:
The Nova slot "processors" have several advantages.
Cheers, Bob.

I agree with a couple of additions. I have a 16 x 20 Nova Quad processor.

The plastic is a little flimsy and a piece of it broke off while moving. I tried supergluing it back on but the result was so-so.

The unit is heavy even when empty and immovable when full. Even with an 8 foot sink I keep it on a separate cart with my printwasher so that it doesnot monopolize the sink. Eah slot holds a little over 1 gallon so draining it is a little tedious. Rinsing it out is also annoying. Cleaning the slots is also difficult, ezpecially if any precipitate accumulates in the bottom. (Don't use selenium toner in a Nova).

The clips for holding the paper leave small marks on the paper. Only a problem if you don't trim the prints. The clips are better for RC paper than for fiber which is a bit too thick. Prints larger than 11 x 14 handle better with 2 clips (even the clips cost $15) which can be awkward to attach.

The disadvantage of good shelf life for the chemicals is that you can lose track of how long they have been in the slots or how many prints you have processed in each slot.

I still think it is a great option, especially for a small darkroom. The best advantage is being able to start processing right away without having to mix chemicals, decreased odor, and compact size. I have converted to the single tray method.

Nige · Jan 29, 2006

Recently I've been using Agfa Multicontrast Developer (the basic one, not Neutol) and by topping up the bottle (with water) to exclude any air it lasts for ages. It goes brown but keeps on working like normal. I usually change it when I change my fixer (a rough guess of the number of prints that have been through it) but it doesn't seem to die like I found Neutol (both WA and NE) or Ilford MG. I used to keep developer if I was going to be printing in the next day or two, otherwise turf it but now I seem to change it before it's actually exhausted. Since Agfa have gone belly-up , I'm about to go back to Ilford once my remaining Agfa is gone.

discotex · Feb 1, 2006

Jack Lusted said:
As an amateur with wife and four little ones and limited darkroom space I can definitely say that the Nova has made darkroom work possible for me. Trays would not work in my current situation so without the Nova I would simply have to forgo the joys of the darkroom.

Hope that helps,

Jack

I've been sitting on the fence on this for ages. Never thought I could justify the expense.. Just the other day I found a Nova Quad that was going cheep. After reading the comments in this thread I snapped it up and I'm ecstatic I did.

My darkroom consists of a desk in a 6'x4' space at the end of my bedroom. Fitting 3 8x10 trays, paper cutter and an enlarger on that desk was a nightmare.

The Nova takes the pain out of the micro-darkroom. If you have limited time or space it's well worth it - even at full price.

..Matt

Maine-iac · Feb 2, 2006

Dan,

For example, with D-72 or E-72, what would your method look like in terms of formula/chemical quantities/dilution, etc.?

Larry

fschifano · Feb 2, 2006

I don't use a Nova slot processor. Can't justify the expense for the small amount of printing that I do. I'm sure that just about any developer would keep better in that device than it would in open trays since it isn't exposed to air that much.

My print developer of choice is Dektol. I find that I can keep a working solution of 1+3 for up to a week, provided that I haven't used it to exhaustion, without any noticeable decrease in activity if I bottle it back up after a session. If you want to use a Nova slot processor, that's fine. If you have the space to lay out the trays and don't mind spending a little extra set up and tear down time, save your money and spend it on paper.

Keeping paper developer

digiconvert

fhovie

MurrayMinchin

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Dave Miller

srs5694

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Bruce Appel

avandesande

dancqu

jeroldharter

Jack Lusted

srs5694

pentaxuser

Bob F.

Dave Miller

jeroldharter

Nige

discotex

Maine-iac

fschifano

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