Keeping Film in the Public Eye

Hmm... Just be careful you guys don't end up standing alone together in the echo chamber. Everyone knows where that leads.

Just because some may choose different approaches than you might like doesn't mean that you are the only ones keeping film in the public eye. Unless, of course, you believe that your way is the only way.

It's a much bigger world out there than one might be inclined to believe you guys think, based on a reading of this thread.

For example, most here are not professional photographers. Many are highly intelligent and accomplished individuals who are professionals working in far more challenging fields. For them photography is a big step down the difficulty scale into a more relaxed avocation. One that provides a welcome respite from their high-pressure high-degree-of-difficulty day jobs.

Best not to taunt these people for not also practicing photography professionally on their weekends. Or accuse them of doing nothing to promote the use of film to the public by not posting to your favorite outside forum threads. One can't presume to know what they do to this end on their own time, rather than posting replies here.

I'm not a professional photographer. And I don't intend to post in that recommended thread. But I've organized and taught groups of junior high school kids how to make pinhole cameras from paint cans. And how to develop and contact print their paper negatives in a real (temporary faculty bathroom) darkroom at their school. And had at least one young lady choose later in high school to continue taking film-based photography classes because of it.

Here's a surviving link to two such sessions back in 2005. There are student photographs (round from the bottom of the paint cans), a tech section for parents to read, and some exposure charts. I even built a custom paint can tripod mount for them to use. The kids had a blast making the cameras and the photos. Kirsten is the young lady who continued on in high school.

I think this kind of activity qualifies under the definition of keeping film in the public eye. And like the majority here on APUG, my day job has nothing to do with photography.

Just some food for thought. And perhaps a bit of perspective.



Ken

Nuff said:

Ratty, I posted few of my photos from my last years trip to Nepal up there. It was my first digital free holiday since 2003. I'm not sure if I will continue posting there, I really don't like the interface But for now I will see how it works out. I do prefer posting photos, since that's what photography is for me all about etc, not talking about the endless technical thingies magicas. Deep down inside they are all soulless black boxes with lenses.

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The FM interface is dirt simple. What's not to like?

Now then, your images are BEAUTIFUL! Exactly what people need to be seeing! I am serious, that is just wonderful photography. I can see already one has responded to your post. Next time (and there WILL be a next time ) Just post a few, then trickle them out over the next few days. My hope is to keep that thread nailed to the top of the forum there. Already it is the 4th most active thread in the Alt. forum.

Your work with Portra is inspiring. For whatever reason I have NEVER liked my own photography when I tried Portra, but I just LOVE other people's work with it. Very bizarre.

THANK YOU for your post over at FM! I mean it.

Ken Nadvornick said:

Many are highly intelligent and accomplished individuals who are professionals working in far more challenging fields. For them photography is a big step down the difficulty scale into a more relaxed avocation.

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Yeah, I guess it is easier to just clock out, come home and take snapshots. But to be at the top of your game, earn 6+ figures and fend off competition or worse, freetography, you had better believe it takes FAR more talent than is regularly displayed on sites like these Ken.

I get it man, you want me and my Kodak defending ass out of here so I am f_cking DONE here Ken, congratulations! I am deleting my gallery and signing out for good, you all have Ken to thank.

Taunting is easy. Perspective can be a harder destination to arrive at...

Ken

Ken, I just don't like the doom and gloom people etc... people who just talk and do nothing. That is all. As they say, talk is cheap.

You on the other hand have you own approach, I'm not forcing, taunting or twisting anyones hands.

PKM, I wouldn't take anything personally said on internet unless I know the people in person, sometimes it's best to ignore and move on. I use internet in search of more sharing more knowledge. This place here is good for that.

Ken Nadvornick said:

Hmm... Just be careful you guys don't end up standing alone together in the echo chamber. Everyone knows where that leads.

Just because some may choose different approaches than you might like doesn't mean that you are the only ones keeping film in the public eye. Unless, of course, you believe that your way is the only way.

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I never said my way is the only way.

Ken Nadvornick said:

It's a much bigger world out there than one might be inclined to believe you guys think, based on a reading of this thread.

For example, most here are not professional photographers.

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I know this. Certainly I am no pro.

Ken Nadvornick said:

Many are highly intelligent and accomplished individuals who are professionals working in far more challenging fields. For them photography is a big step down the difficulty scale into a more relaxed avocation. One that provides a welcome respite from their high-pressure high-degree-of-difficulty day jobs.

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My situation exactly.

Ken Nadvornick said:

Best not to taunt these people for not also practicing photography professionally on their weekends.

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Taunting is a ridiculously strong word. No one is taunting anyone. Nor is posting a LINK on a forum considered "professional photography".

Ken Nadvornick said:

Or accuse them of doing nothing to promote the use of film to the public by not posting to your favorite outside forum threads. One can't presume to know what they do to this end on their own time, rather than posting replies here.

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I dont get this at all. Fredmiranda is NOT my favorite forum (APUG is). My point, clearly lost due to my poor writing, was that over at FM (which is probably THE second largest digital photography web site in the English language, there is a island oasis of film users. Here at APUG, there are LOTS of film users would could amplifiy the affect that the film thread at FM has. I gave my own example that by seeing film work at FM, I now shoot film 100% of the time.

Ken Nadvornick said:

I'm not a professional photographer. And I don't intend to post in that recommended thread. But I've organized and taught groups of junior high school kids how to make pinhole cameras from paint cans. And how to develop and contact print their paper negatives in a real (temporary faculty bathroom) darkroom at their school. And had at least one young lady choose later in high school to continue taking film-based photography classes because of it.

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That's great, and it has real, substantial value. But in person demonstrations/teaching has a very finite, minimal level of success. One post on FM could be seen by who knows how many people? The possibilities are seemingly limitless. I'd like to thank the person who turned me onto film. His post at FM planted a seed that is still growing today. Sadly I dont know who that person is!

Ken Nadvornick said:

Here's a surviving link to two such sessions back in 2005. There are student photographs (round from the bottom of the paint cans), a tech section for parents to read, and some exposure charts. I even built a custom paint can tripod mount for them to use. The kids had a blast making the cameras and the photos. Kirsten is the young lady who continued on in high school.

I think this kind of activity qualifies under the definition of keeping film in the public eye. And like the majority here on APUG, my day job has nothing to do with photography.

Just some food for thought. And perhaps a bit of perspective.



Ken

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My day job has absolutely nothing to do with photography, other than help fund it.

Ratty, keep the vibe good bud, I am done here, deleted all my gallery images, attachments, I just can't take the crapfest anymore.

I sincerely wish you all the best...

Good bye,

Dan

PKM-25 said:

Ratty, keep the vibe good bud, I am done here, deleted all my gallery images, attachments, I just can't take the crapfest anymore.

I sincerely wish you all the best...

Good bye,

Dan

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Very unfortunate. I could not regret my ridiculous post more. However, I know there's lots of baggage well before this.

Be well! There's life beyond the internet, that is for sure. I'll get there too I think once I get back to the English speaking world.

RattyMouse said:

The FM interface is dirt simple. What's not to like?

Now then, your images are BEAUTIFUL! Exactly what people need to be seeing! I am serious, that is just wonderful photography. I can see already one has responded to your post. Next time (and there WILL be a next time ) Just post a few, then trickle them out over the next few days. My hope is to keep that thread nailed to the top of the forum there. Already it is the 4th most active thread in the Alt. forum.

Your work with Portra is inspiring. For whatever reason I have NEVER liked my own photography when I tried Portra, but I just LOVE other people's work with it. Very bizarre.

THANK YOU for your post over at FM! I mean it.

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The FM interface is very very old fashioned There's not even preview. What I don't like is that when I click on the photo it doesn't send people to the bigger image on flickr, where there's more information about the photo is.

Thanks for the complements, but I don't think they are that great. Unless I can get my photo featured on 1x.com etc... I will keep working on it. At the moment I'm studding more about photography and artwork in general. Hopefully there is some kind of artistic talent hidden inside of me, since it seems to run in the family. Unfortunately I have never worked on trying to develop it. On the other hand my sister is a painter and she makes a living out of it.

Portra is very nice film, but as always in photography, it's all about capturing light. The place was nice, the light was great, the mood was just right and I took the photo. If you want to see the rest of my photos, go to my flickr. I still have to post up all of my photos from my trip to Japan.

And if you need help in trying to develop your photography, send me a PM. I can provide you with few links.

I like Dan. Always have. I've even sent him a piece of equipment (an easel) from my own darkroom for free. (Although he did generously send me some money for it later on his own.)

The taunting reference was not made with you mind, RM. It was instead a reference to the constant drumbeat of, if you guys were only talented enough to be professional photographers, then you'd understand everything. But you're not. So you don't.

Well, I and most of us aren't. But that doesn't mean we all just fell off the turnip truck. There's a LOT of killer intelligent people on here (myself excluded) who ALSO know a lot about photography. And they're already making six figures in other professional fields. And photography is only an avocation for them. And still they do understand everything that's being discussed about photography.

Don't taunt these people for not being professional photographers...

Ken

Ken Nadvornick said:

I like Dan. Always have. I've even sent him a piece of equipment (an easel) from my own darkroom for free. (Although he did generously send me some money for it later on his own.)

The taunting reference was not made with you mind, RM. It was instead a reference to the constant drumbeat of, if you guys were only talented enough to be professional photographers, then you'd understand everything. But you're not. So you don't.

Well, I and most of us aren't. But that doesn't mean we all just fell off the turnip truck. There's a LOT of killer intelligent people on here (myself excluded) who ALSO know a lot about photography. And they're already making six figures in other professional fields. And photography is only an avocation for them. And still they do understand everything that's being discussed about photography.

Don't taunt these people for not being professional photographers...

Ken

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I think there could have been a fair bit of miscommunication and topics from old threads brought up. In a lot of doom and gloom threads lots of pros get flak for not promoting film enough etc... I can understand people who have their own business working 24/7 on promoting their business.

I do work as a professional, but I don't have to do it 24/7. I think a lot of things are taken out of context around here.

Nuff said:

I think there could have been a fair bit of miscommunication and topics from old threads brought up. In a lot of doom and gloom threads lots of pros get flak for not promoting film enough etc... I can understand people who have their own business working 24/7 on promoting their business.

I do work as a professional, but I don't have to do it 24/7. I think a lot of things are taken out of context around here.

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I agree and can understand that promotion as well. But it's possible to raise up your own level without also dragging everyone else's down. If the only criterion for knowledgable participation as a photographer on APUG is that one must be a professional practitioner of it, then 99.8% of us are doomed. We may as well drop our memberships and slink away with out tails between our legs.

On the other hand, I chose to believe that all of us, professional photographers or not, have something to offer, each in their own chosen way. On my excursions out with various antique LF cameras I get into so many film conversations with people who are utterly fascinated that I'm thinking of printing up cards with both APUG's and Freestyle's addresses on them.

[Edit: And poor Dan would probably clutch his chest and fall over dead from a heart attack if he knew how many times I've championed Kodak film in these conversations. My standard line is that it's Kodak (and color) that needs the help. Not Ilford (and b&w), who are doing just fine.]

But then again, I'm not a professional photographer, so I guess those conversations don't count since I can't possibly understand what photography is all about. I did, however, just finish my professional day. It's 12:19am here on the mainland US West Coast...

Ken

hate to see the PMK fellow go.

Ken, generally speaking, I like you too. But in the past year I have been getting increasingly fed up with a lot of things on here.

One such thing is what drives a lot of other income earning photographers like my self away, not only is there gross misinformation about the profession of photography on here, there is spite....it's awful.
Not from you but other people. There is also some very counterproductive engagement about the state of the industry. People like Simon only chime in when Iford's name is dropped, otherwise he stays out of it.

I will be 47 years old next month and while I have enjoyed a great career, I want to *really* ramp it up to more than just the next level. I want to create some wealth and notoriety in order for my wife and I to retire, so she does not have to keep working as hard and maybe take some time off to get her PHD in Forensic Anthropology which is both her major and her passion.

I am finding more and more everyday that I can not deal with some of the windbagging arm chair opinions that go on here and on the net in general. it is truly draining me, my friends who are very successful at what we do keep telling me to stay off the forums, to give back and mentor through workshops which I have started doing.

You and I normally get tangled up when it comes to discussions of how we voice our complaints about certain film makers or not. But tonight I read something that made it sound like people do photography to relax because it is easier than some high tech demanding job they may do.

I took it personally, as if you did not think putting out top notch pro work was hard. Bottom line, the very notion of a paid photographer who is well worth the money someone may pay him has come under increasing amounts of nastiness here, blanket statements being made like NONE of us are doing well and there is no need for us. It's not like there are dozens of pros chiming in and causing a stir, if anything they are generally absent here and you might want to consider why that is...

Put your self in my shoes....I came here to learn and share. In one post in the medium format section, I took the time to show the visual differences between Hassy lenses and even gave great detail in how to put filters like IR 720nm on a Hasselblad 40mm. I tried Ken and after tonight I am giving up...I deleted in less than 5 minutes what took me nearly a decade to upload on here.

I use the easel you sent me all the time, I will always be grateful for that. But the overall negative tone and by far the worst, the constant throwing of mud at the notion of someone getting paid well to do what most on here love with a passion, I have to be done once and for all, it's toxic.

I have made my dream of being a photographer come true for the past 23 years, now it is time for me to make my next dream come true, to truly become a film and darkroom based fine art photographer that is simply hard to miss.

I find I simply can not do that when I get upset or even depressed at how things go on here....it affects me deeply and there is no turning that off, it is who I am.

So I truly wish all of you the best, I had to sign back on to send a PM to someone I am dealing with regarding a classified. You won't have to hear me defending Kodak or the profession of photography anymore....good night and good light.

Not trying to beg off here, Dan. But I too have a client who is going to want to see the software fix I have been digging out for the last two days. So I do need to get some sleep tonight. It's even later where you are.

I'm going to send you a PM tomorrow...

Take care,
Ken

Dan,

I think you can easily recognize how forum participation here is doing you nothing but ill. It is very wise of you to move on, despite the fact that I've always enjoyed your posts. That you can see so clearly how your work suffers from how the atmosphere here affects you should power you through and find a new outlet to enjoy your craft.

Best of luck to you in your well stated goals. I am sure that with hard work, very hard work, you will get there.

Be well!

WTF what is wrong with APUG should be the name of a new thread. APUG is about promoting and sharing analogue photography and yet it seems that it has become a bash Kodak forum mixed with we're all gonna (film) die. I can relate to the defeatists up to a point, but honestly what is the point of APUG if this kind of thing is happening on this forum. We should promote film for our own interest, (the Apug gallery is honestly a useless tool in promoting film photography) if we don'T we'll lose it. Someone in this thread rightly said APUG is the friendlies and film should be promoted behind the enemies line.

I am also sorry to see Dan go, this is wrong and shows that not all is good in APUG land.

As for promotion I do use film and unfortunately digital as a pro but I try to use film whenever I can and try to get my client to go the film route. I also hold lectures about photography and film history and try to promote analogue photography there as well. I am also member of a 99% digital Photoclub and constantly use Film for the work I show there and try to get others members to the filmside. When I am shooting on the street or nature and people comment on the tools I use I try to promote film by stating it's advantages and the magic behind film.
I also use thousands of feet of film per year which is the best kind of promotion I go out and shoot still and moving pictures with film.

PKM-25 said:

Both Thomas and I said we show prints and I know for a fact it gets people fired up, perhaps more so than looking at them on the web because they are looking at the finished product.

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I did just that last Saturday to a novice photographer and someone new to film photography. I showed my prints, and prints I had acquired from others to show different styles, and he is very keen on getting going. The very same day he went to the darkroom at the Minneapolis Photo Center to make contact prints of two sleeves full of negatives. In fact, I dropped him off there, and then I had five texts asking follow-up questions.

I'm almost a little bit shocked by the amount of enthusiasm he is showing. Very rewarding to share like this for me too, to have such an impact on somebody else, positive impact.
I am certain he will show darkroom photography in a good light to others, simply by sharing his prints, and to participate in the community.

APUG can be a little too technical sometimes, but I also think that is because things you can measure are easier to discuss than things you can't measure. The artistic side of photography is much more difficult to discuss, but is probably also what is the key motivating force behind the greatest and most successful photographers. Here we tend to obsess way too much about technical aspects of photography, and hardly ever get into the actual art.
Those who are more artistically inclined, and who care much less about the technical side of it, probably get disillusioned with APUG pretty fast.

I hate to see Dan go, he really knows his stuff. But he's right to stop using his time on anything that interferes with his life goals. I wish he hadn't had the temper tantrum and deleted all his stuff. It was really good.

I post to FM, I have probably 2000+ posts there. The alt forum is a good place. Mostly focused on small format but still, worth a visit. I've posted in that film thread. The only reason I haven't posted more there is I am too lazy to scan, and any digital representation is a pale imitation of the actual print, so it's almost not worth it anyway...

EdSawyer said:

I post to FM, I have probably 2000+ posts there. The alt forum is a good place. Mostly focused on small format but still, worth a visit. I've posted in that film thread. The only reason I haven't posted more there is I am too lazy to scan, and any digital representation is a pale imitation of the actual print, so it's almost not worth it anyway...

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I've seen you over there at FM! And it IS worth it, unless you think converting folks like over to film, (as my exposure to film via FM did) isnt worth it. :confused:

In terms of the 45,000 APUGers here a very small percentage have contributed to this thread. With respect to Dan who has forsaken APUG he seems to have left us based on the adverse effect a tiny percentage of the APUG membership have had on him.

What he has removed, including himself, may have had the effect of damaging the very attraction of film to others as it has starved them of his contribution.

Not what he'd have wanted, I suspect

pentaxuser

It's a shame when a potential tidbit of knowledge for future search-engine googlers is lost when someone moves on. As for me I hope I've caused some photographic jewels of credible knowledge to show up fro time to time. Just as my way of paying back for what Ive managed to learn. I'm sure I'll move on too at some point when I have gleaned and winnowed as many tidbits as theyre currently are. There comes a time when you've eaten up all the food, and just lay off and let it accumulate back up. Not sure what I've contributed qualitywise was the best out there at all, but I can hope so.

As someone who went from full digital to 50-50, I have to say it's stupid that people argue the internet wont convert people.
The internet is a means of education, interaction -why wouldnt it convert? I saw the link RattyMouse directed to and the pics of Nepal - 'nuff's? Are wonderful advertisements of analog colour photography.
Why wouldnt that excite anyone who loves colour? That might even convert a few to film usage.
I am a convert to film after reading about it and seeing the results on the internet. Sure, dont put up stuff on the net or whatever, but the reasoning that only prints will work - well, if I'm a million miles away from good printers and film prints, how are those prints which are millions of times better than digital representation going to convert me? They aren't. The internet cuts that gap -and thank God forthose people who have put up photos online. If it weren'tfor them, I would've been continually sucked into the digital upgrade every year cycle.

(art galleries only worked for me in the film promotion department AFTER I started using film, not before. Who knew what a transparency or 6x6 or 4x5 was?!

Sent from Tap-a-talk

analoguey said:

As someone who went from full digital to 50-50, I have to say it's stupid that people argue the internet wont convert people.
The internet is a means of education, interaction -why wouldnt it convert? I saw the link RattyMouse directed to and the pics of Nepal - 'nuff's? Are wonderful advertisements of analog colour photography.
Why wouldnt that excite anyone who loves colour? That might even convert a few to film usage.
I am a convert to film after reading about it and seeing the results on the internet. Sure, dont put up stuff on the net or whatever, but the reasoning that only prints will work - well, if I'm a million miles away from good printers and film prints, how are those prints which are millions of times better than digital representation going to convert me? They aren't. The internet cuts that gap -and thank God forthose people who have put up photos online. If it weren'tfor them, I would've been continually sucked into the digital upgrade every year cycle.

(art galleries only worked for me in the film promotion department AFTER I started using film, not before. Who knew what a transparency or 6x6 or 4x5 was?!

Sent from Tap-a-talk

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Thanks, and yes they are my photos, someone was using my nick, so I had to choose a different one. It was from my first analogue holiday.

And what you say I couldn't agree more. How are people supposed to see the million times better prints which are hidden in someone's closet. They will not. People don't stalk stranger's closets any more. They use internet.

And I can imagine being in an emerging market like India there's no film there. There was none in Nepal! Thankfully I brought a whole lot of me. This is photo of only half of the film I took with me. I had another bag with more BW 120, 35mm and and instax film for the locals.