Kallitypes

ced · Jan 2, 2016

Hello you bright folks & Happy NY!
I have just started with Kallitypes doing exposure tests.
I find on 2 different papers back/front that the unexposed areas turn a silver grey uniform tone and never goes/clears to white.
I mix the Fe-Ox-AgNO3 just prior to coating, developer is Sodium Acetate 2 mins. and clear with Citric Acid 5 mins. each in 2 baths. & fix.
Why does the silver grey remain please? Thanks for any clues.

Jim Noel · Jan 2, 2016

The grey sounds like fog. Have you checked your safelights? Also, adding EDTA to your clearing bath can help as will assuring your first rinse is slightly acidic.

ced · Jan 2, 2016

Jim, thanks! I don't rinse and go straight to clearing after development. The silver grey is there directly on development.

pschwart · Jan 2, 2016

Good tip from Jim -- add a pinch of citric acid to the first rinse.

What paper are you using? Have you tried another?
How old is your ferric oxalate?
Do you use heat to dry sensitized papers?

Staining can be a big problem, so I do the following when I print kallitypes:

- use an acid presoak, even for unbuffered papers
- all chemistry is single-shot: developer (sodium citrate), citric acid clearing baths, toners, and fixer
- monitor the pH of my developer with a meter

SMBooth · Jan 2, 2016

You should develop for much longer as well, say 6-8 min. But the greying sound like fogging.
I just go straight from developer to clearing bath, no wash until after clearing.
Importantly, what paper...not all papers like Kallitype.

ced · Jan 2, 2016

Thanks all! Everything is freshly mixed as I just started.
It could be light fogging (I will test) the papers may also be a problem (will test others).
Dev time should be okay at 2 mins as the silver grey does not get lighter or darker.
When we refer to stain I thought this was yellow/brownish but this silvery grey is that also referred to as a stain?

ced · Jan 2, 2016

Thanks all! Everything is freshly mixed as I just started.
It could be light fogging (I will test) the papers may also be a problem (will test others).
Dev time should be okay at 2 mins as the silver grey does not get lighter or darker.
When we refer to stain I thought this was yellow/brownish but this silvery grey is that also referred to as a stain?
What kind of acid presoak? I do not heat dry the paper after sensitising.

pschwart · Jan 2, 2016

ced said:
Thanks all! Everything is freshly mixed as I just started.
It could be light fogging (I will test) the papers may also be a problem (will test others).
Dev time should be okay at 2 mins as the silver grey does not get lighter or darker.
When we refer to stain I thought this was yellow/brownish but this silvery grey is that also referred to as a stain?
What kind of acid presoak? I do not heat dry the paper after sensitising.

Stain tends to be blotchy patches so it's usually easy to differentiate from fog.

Acid soak: try 1.5% oxalic acid for 3 minutes. I rinse and dry my papers so they are ready whenever I want to print. Sulfamic acid also works well. I have never had success
with either citric or acetic acid.

Dev time: You should develop for a lot longer to eliminate residual iron compounds. Mask your negatives and you can see this as stain where the paper was sensitized but unexposed The fact that the fog didn't get lighter or darker is irrelevant.

ced · Jan 3, 2016

Thanks Philip!

Andrew O'Neill · Jan 3, 2016

As said, acidify your paper. What paper are you using? Every paper that I use benefits significantly to acidifying, except Arches Platine. I use sulfamic acid, which you can pick up at your local hardware store (ceramic tile cleaner). Also, make sure your rinse bath after development is slightly acidic.

ced · Jan 4, 2016

Further tests with my "fog" 3 different types of paper (attached) the 3rd is what I like colour wise but that silver grey fog still there even doing everything in near darkness.
Is this a chemical fog or paper issue?

Jim Noel · Jan 4, 2016

ced said:
Thanks all! Everything is freshly mixed as I just started.
It could be light fogging (I will test) the papers may also be a problem (will test others).
Dev time should be okay at 2 mins as the silver grey does not get lighter or darker.
When we refer to stain I thought this was yellow/brownish but this silvery grey is that also referred to as a stain?
What kind of acid presoak? I do not heat dry the paper after sensitising.

Some workers find it necessary to pre-soak some papers in an acid. I have never had to do so, but I am careful to buy unbuffered rag papers. When I run across a paper which requires acid pre-soak, I get rid of it.
Your development time is fine. The gray fog is not caused by lack of development or clearing. Yellow stain is the result of insufficient clearing.
By all means test your safelights.

Jim Noel · Jan 4, 2016

ced said:
Further tests with my "fog" 3 different types of paper (attached) the 3rd is what I like colour wise but that silver grey fog still there even doing everything in near darkness.
Is this a chemical fog or paper issue?

Since you have tested your safelight, these all look like a paper issue. The unexposed areas should be the same as the original paper.
Have you tried processing a piece of paper which has not been exposed to UV? This could lead to a clue.

Jim Noel · Jan 4, 2016

A suggestion - go to a stationery shop and obtain some 100% cotton or rag paper and give it a try. It will be lightweight and fragile but should print beautifully. That is what I have students use so they learn how to properly handle paper. You should find it much cheaper than what you are using. I am able to buy 80 sheets of 8.5x11" for less than $20 US..

ced · Jan 4, 2016

Jim Thanks! I tried a bit of sensitised paper and developed without exposure to UV and yes it is silver grey too.
The masked areas of the greycale tests I attached in my previous post also recieved no UV light.
Does this point to my sensitiser or more likely the paper? Cheers!

Andrew O'Neill · Jan 4, 2016

The paper example on the left looks like your best bet. The best developer I've ever tried is sodium citrate. Make sure your initial rinse after development is slightly acidic (a half a teaspoon of citric acid crystals in a bucket of water works for me) Clear print in 30% citric acid. Fix with 50g per litre of sodium thiosulfate (hydrous; or 25g anyhydrous) and 50ml ammonia for one minute.
Paper. Arches Platine is very nice and doesn't require acidifying. The same goes for Lana Aquarelle. Expensive, but worth it. I use these papers as well as Stonehenge, which requires acidifying.

Your issue is probably your paper, rinse, and clearing bath.

SMBooth · Jan 4, 2016

50 ml of Ammonia ?? or 5 ml..

pschwart · Jan 4, 2016

Jim Noel said:
A suggestion - go to a stationery shop and obtain some 100% cotton or rag paper and give it a try. It will be lightweight and fragile but should print beautifully. That is what I have students use so they learn how to properly handle paper. You should find it much cheaper than what you are using. I am able to buy 80 sheets of 8.5x11" for less than $20 US..

I am going to be a contrarian

Writing papers can work but ...
- they will be *very* fragile when soaked. You can try floating them on a backing sheet like Yupo cover stock, but unless the paper has a very
special quality (like Washi), I'd stick to 90 lb stock or heavier. I would consider using lightweight papers to be an advanced technique.

- thin papers will typically cockle making a rod less practical. Even brushing can be challenging. Cockled papers will need to be flattened
before exposure in a contact frame.

Acid soaking: I used to avoid this, too, but it's really a simple task and does expand the selection of nice papers that can work with kallitypes,
platinum/palladium, salt, and other processes. Probably best to avoid this when learning, but it's a very useful technique, especially when
problem solving.

Andrew O'Neill · Jan 4, 2016

50 ml of Ammonia ?? or 5 ml..

50ml. or 5% Ammonia.

Jim Noel · Jan 4, 2016

pschwart said:
I am going to be a contrarian

Writing papers can work but ...
- they will be *very* fragile when soaked. You can try floating them on a backing sheet like Yupo cover stock, but unless the paper has a very
special quality (like Washi), I'd stick to 90 lb stock or heavier. I would consider using lightweight papers to be an advanced technique.

- thin papers will typically cockle making a rod less practical. Even brushing can be challenging. Cockled papers will need to be flattened
before exposure in a contact frame.

Acid soaking: I used to avoid this, too, but it's really a simple task and does expand the selection of nice papers that can work with kallitypes,
platinum/palladium, salt, and other processes. Probably best to avoid this when learning, but it's a very useful technique, especially when
problem solving.

100% cotton or rag papers are thin, yes, but they do not cockle. With proper handling there is no need to fool with a backing paper. I have taught over 1000 students to use them for alt processes. Once taught to handle them correctly workers don't have problems handling any papers. They generally are in the 24-32 lb range and it is amazing how much difference they make visually with some processes.

Tom Taylor · Jan 5, 2016

I have had paper that I had coated for salt prints turn grey while stored in a paper box for a couple of hours. I had coated several sheets and started printing one at a time after the first hour - it takes ~ 45 minutes to an hour for a sheet to air-dry after coating. It turned out that I had waited too long to print. With salt prints you can extend the time to print by adding citric acid to the senstizer. For best results, print as soon as the sheet is dry. I let my sheet dry face-up in a dark room for 1 hour before printing.

Once you have your technique down, you only need to coat one sheet to make one print.

Thomas

pschwart · Jan 5, 2016

Jim Noel said:
100% cotton or rag papers are thin, yes, but they do not cockle. With proper handling there is no need to fool with a backing paper. I have taught over 1000 students to use them for alt processes. Once taught to handle them correctly workers don't have problems handling any papers. They generally are in the 24-32 lb range and it is amazing how much difference they make visually with some processes.

they do not cockle
Some certainly do. The real take away: every alt printer has materials they favor, and their own working methods. A lot of alt processing is about problem solving.

NedL · Jan 5, 2016

pschwart said:
...A lot of alt processing is about problem solving.

ain't that the truth!

Jim Noel · Jan 5, 2016

MY final thought on the problem.Do you have a fluorescent light source of any kind in your darkroom? Most of these glow for a period of time after being turned off. Some as long as 20-30 minutes. They produce enough UV to fog the sensitizer.

ced · Jan 5, 2016

Jim, No lamps almost in darkness and drying time after coating about 45-60mins and exposed with neg after 1 hour max 1.5hr

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