kallitype for beginners

awty · Jun 26, 2017

Hi
Im interested in starting to make contact prints in either Kallitype or argyrotype or vandyke. I dont know you tell me.
Not sure where to start, most kits seem to be expensive and limited to only a few 8x10's. So I was wondering if someone could give me a grocery list of whats needed and amounts so I can buy the ingredients and make my own.
Have normal film and paper chemistry, not sure if any of that is of use?
Im ok with following recipes and process, but I really struggle with Latin....
Intend to use 8x10 negatives, well once I have a camera, may have to make one.

Yes I have googled and searched, just need a little direction to where to start.

Thanks

Andrew O'Neill · Jun 26, 2017

Hi Paul,

You'll need silver nitrate and ferric oxalate. Make sure you get FERRIC and not ferrous. I made that mistake when I was starting out. I order silver nitrate from Nymoc in Toronto, and Ferric oxalate from Bostich & Sullivan (it's super fine and goes into hot water easily).

I develop with Sodium Citrate. I find this to be the most stable developer, and with filtering and slight topping off with fresh stock, goes on and on. 100g per litre. I use powder not crystals, so I've cut back on the amount needed.
I use Citric acid for clearing. 30g per litre water.
For fix I mix up sodium thiosulfate anhydrous 25g to 750ml warm water. Then add 50ml household ammonia (no additives type). Top off to a litre. Fix for a minute.

Once you get comfortable and good at it, try toning. I sometimes use selenium which is a bit tricky, as you have to be very careful not to bleach out high lights. Selenium toning is done after fixing. To counter that, I expose a little bit longer.
Gold toning is the cat's meow. Tone after clearing, and water rinse (before fixing). I get gold chloride from B&S. I use gold toning formula #2 as outlined in Sandy King's article:

http://sandykingphotography.com/resources/technical-writing/the-kallitype-process

Not all papers are suitable for alt processes. Some need acidifying, such as Stonehenge. I acidify in 10% sulfamic acid for 5 minutes, then give the paper a really good wash. You can also acidify in a citric acid bath. Papers that don't need acidifying that I use are Arches Platine, and Hahnemuhle platinum rag. Expensive, but lovely. Learn on cheaper paper first and if you come to like the process, move up to nicer papers.

I apply the sensitiser with a foam brush or puddle pusher (glass rod). Some people use expensive brushes, but I don't feel necessary. Brushes absorb sensitiser and a bit more is wasted, compared to using a puddle pusher.

Read Sandy's article. It's where I started. Good luck!

NedL · Jun 27, 2017

Andy, you are using 10% sulfamic? I thought I remembered you using a lower concentration, maybe 2 or 3%.

Andrew O'Neill · Jun 27, 2017

Hi NedL. Yes, you're right. I was using a lower concentration at 5%, but I found it would exhaust pretty quickly. 10% seems to give me more bang for the buck... 10% is pretty strong so I work in a ventilated area when mixing and acidifying paper.

awty · Jun 27, 2017

Andrew O'Neill said:
Hi Paul,

You'll need silver nitrate and ferric oxalate. Make sure you get FERRIC and not ferrous. I made that mistake when I was starting out. I order silver nitrate from Nymoc in Toronto, and Ferric oxalate from Bostich & Sullivan (it's super fine and goes into hot water easily).

I develop with Sodium Citrate. I find this to be the most stable developer, and with filtering and slight topping off with fresh stock, goes on and on. 100g per litre. I use powder not crystals, so I've cut back on the amount needed.
I use Citric acid for clearing. 30g per litre water.
For fix I mix up sodium thiosulfate anhydrous 25g to 750ml warm water. Then add 50ml household ammonia (no additives type). Top off to a litre. Fix for a minute.

Once you get comfortable and good at it, try toning. I sometimes use selenium which is a bit tricky, as you have to be very careful not to bleach out high lights. Selenium toning is done after fixing. To counter that, I expose a little bit longer.
Gold toning is the cat's meow. Tone after clearing, and water rinse (before fixing). I get gold chloride from B&S. I use gold toning formula #2 as outlined in Sandy King's article:

http://sandykingphotography.com/resources/technical-writing/the-kallitype-process

Not all papers are suitable for alt processes. Some need acidifying, such as Stonehenge. I acidify in 10% sulfamic acid for 5 minutes, then give the paper a really good wash. You can also acidify in a citric acid bath. Papers that don't need acidifying that I use are Arches Platine, and Hahnemuhle platinum rag. Expensive, but lovely. Learn on cheaper paper first and if you come to like the process, move up to nicer papers.

I apply the sensitiser with a foam brush or puddle pusher (glass rod). Some people use expensive brushes, but I don't feel necessary. Brushes absorb sensitiser and a bit more is wasted, compared to using a puddle pusher.

Read Sandy's article. It's where I started. Good luck!

Thank you thank you thank you.
Ive read Sandy's process and your details will help me a lot.
Need to start assembling the bits in coming weeks. Ill get back to you if I have any more dumb questions if thats OK.

pdeeh · Jun 27, 2017

There are a few places where you can get stacks of info online to help you with all the basics, including what you need for various processes and instructions on how to deploy them.

Two in particular are worth mentioning: alternativephotography.com and unblinkingeye.com
Then there are all the alt-process books: Look for books by Christopher James, Richard Farber, Christina Anderson amongst others. The James books are reckoned by lots of people to be very comprehensive.

Plus of course all the threads here at APUG, which probably will answer any question you have as I'd bet most have been asked before

good luck.

Andrew O'Neill · Jun 27, 2017

Ask away Paul. Ask away!

awty · Jun 30, 2017

Andrew O'Neill said:
Ask away Paul. Ask away!

Hi Andrew and anyone else who would like to throw in there 2 bobs worth
Just sorting through the shopping list, once I find the common names for the stuff it seems more readily available. Unfortunately most stuff from the states an Canada is hugely expensive for postage, talking 100 AUD minimum postage from Bostich & Sullivan, so Im trying to source chemicals locally. The only thing I cant seem to find is ferric oxalate, is there another name for it? I can get Ferric Ammonium Citrate Green, is that the same?

Also I see you and others are using Pyrocat-HD to develop the negatives, is this the optimum developer? What type of negative is best used? High contrast, low contrast, dense or thin or none of the above?

Thanks

pdeeh · Jun 30, 2017

awty said:
I can get Ferric Ammonium Citrate Green, is that the same?

Not the same. Very very few chemicals these days are commonly referred with different names.
Google the two things and wikipedia will tell you the differences.

Ferric oxalate is difficult to find for me too. You can make it yourself if you can source the constituent chemicals and are careful and confident and have an eye to safety. Have a look at Mike Ware's site or Farber's book for a how-to on this.

As for negatives, the sites linked to in posts above do discuss what kind of negatives work best for different alt-processes.
Generally speaking (dangerous to do so but I like risks) alt-processes like a reasonably dense negative with plenty of contrast and what is often called a "long scale"; which basically means a very broad range of densities on the same negative from thin to rather dense.

As for developer, take your pick and work with it. I make lots of alt-prints and most of my negs are developed in Rodinal or D23. Others have their preferred developers, like the staining developers. But there is no "best", although that will never stop people claiming that their own preferences are "BEST".

awty · Jun 30, 2017

pdeeh said:
Not the same. Very very few chemicals these days are commonly referred with different names.
Google the two things and wikipedia will tell you the differences.

Ferric oxalate is difficult to find for me too. You can make it yourself if you can source the constituent chemicals and are careful and confident and have an eye to safety. Have a look at Mike Ware's site or Farber's book for a how-to on this.

As for negatives, the sites linked to in posts above do discuss what kind of negatives work best for different alt-processes.
Generally speaking (dangerous to do so but I like risks) alt-processes like a reasonably dense negative with plenty of contrast and what is often called a "long scale"; which basically means a very broad range of densities on the same negative from thin to rather dense.

As for developer, take your pick and work with it. I make lots of alt-prints and most of my negs are developed in Rodinal or D23. Others have their preferred developers, like the staining developers. But there is no "best", although that will never stop people claiming that their own preferences are "BEST".

Thanks.
I have had a look at your links and google and wiki and search here, but I learn best at asking questions Im not totally sure on and doing, then I go back and read a bit more and it makes a bit more sense.
Ill get there eventually....with some help.

Andrew O'Neill · Jun 30, 2017

I use Pyrocat-HD because it allows me to print the same negative in silver, alt, or scanning. And then there are some other qualities that I like. I find that it's not a good developer for HP5 and alt printing. It just doesn't work for me. Too much base fog with extended development time. Instead for HP5 I develop in a high contrast developer, such as from scratch, D-19 1+3.
You don't have to use Pyrocat-HD.

awty · Jun 30, 2017

Andrew O'Neill said:
I use Pyrocat-HD because it allows me to print the same negative in silver, alt, or scanning. And then there are some other qualities that I like. I find that it's not a good developer for HP5 and alt printing. It just doesn't work for me. Too much base fog with extended development time. Instead for HP5 I develop in a high contrast developer, such as from scratch, D-19 1+3.
You don't have to use Pyrocat-HD.

Thanks Andrew. Ill give Pyrocat a try. I like experimenting with different developers to see what they do. For high contrast I use D76 straight or XTROL straight. I have some foma 100 8x10 coming to have a try

This is hp5 in straight d76 in 35mm am I after something like this?
.

Andrew O'Neill · Jun 30, 2017

The best negative DR is about 1.70 to 1.80... but I have printed negatives with less (with a little potassium dichromate in the sensitiser).

Jim Noel · Jun 30, 2017

awty said:
Hi
Im interested in starting to make contact prints in either Kallitype or argyrotype or vandyke. I dont know you tell me.
Not sure where to start, most kits seem to be expensive and limited to only a few 8x10's. So I was wondering if someone could give me a grocery list of whats needed and amounts so I can buy the ingredients and make my own.
Have normal film and paper chemistry, not sure if any of that is of use?
Im ok with following recipes and process, but I really struggle with Latin....
Intend to use 8x10 negatives, well once I have a camera, may have to make one.

Yes I have googled and searched, just need a little direction to where to start.

Thanks

Since you are hew at these processes, I suggest VDB because it is simpler in every way.

Andrew O'Neill · Jun 30, 2017

That's a great suggestion. I too started with Van Dyke Brown's.

NedL · Jun 30, 2017

And if you are interested you can try (there was a url link here which no longer exists), which is similar to VDB but uses citric instead of tartaric acid. Fun, simple, quick and not fussy.

awty · Jul 1, 2017

Thanks will have a look at VBD and Namia's sepia. They use Ferric Ammonium Citrate, which is easier to get hold of than Ferric Oxalate.

So I can start with the easier processes and hopefully then I will have a better understanding of Kellitype.
Also need to get my head around Negative density. Is this a case of exposing the film at say 100 iso and developing it at 200 iso. I cant seem to find a good, in my head, explanation. Im assuming its over exposed and over developed? Can someone just clarify please.

I found this link for making Ferric oxalate http://www.ericneilsenphotography.com/free_papers/Ferric Oxalate Making Liquid.pdf
Anyone have tried this?

awty · Aug 9, 2017

My first attempt at Vandyke brown.
Need to get a better bush. Guessed the exposure time. Used a UV lamp " 6mins.
8x10 pinhole negative.
Surprised I got an image at all, Ill try again tonight......can only get better.

Andrew O'Neill · Aug 9, 2017

Off to a good start. Which paper did you use? Do you know what caused thosr wavey lines?

awty · Aug 10, 2017

Andrew O'Neill said:
Off to a good start. Which paper did you use? Do you know what caused thosr wavey lines?

Hi Andrew I used Hahnemuhle 300 Platinum Rag 8 x 10 in. I missed a few spots so I tried a second coat and made a mess of things.

Did a few more tries. Lacking consistency. Ill keep trying.

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