Justifying the use of a large format camera...

scootermm · Jun 1, 2005

given the diverse experiences Ive had in just the last week this question is something that has come up in my mind quite a bit lately.
I wondered what the feelings of fellow APUGers were on this subject.
do you feel you have to justify yourself as a photographer in using a large format camera? as in, do you feel an obligation to be a certain skill level or to possess a certain amount of photographic mastery or talent to shoot large format cameras?
Just in the last week Ive gotten the mixed input to the extents of meeting many fellow APUGers and having them seem to quite enjoy my 8x10 photography/printing and then the other extent of having some people tell me I dont justify, nor have the skill and photographic sight to properly shooting with such a format as 8x10 (or for that matter 7x17 soon to be)

so I wonder if others ever get feelings similiar. or have personal experience with this sort of thing.

also, this is by no means a "fishing" for compliments discussion.... Im honestly curious as to peoples thoughts on all this.

Nick Zentena · Jun 1, 2005

No need to justify anything. Use what you want when you want.

roy · Jun 1, 2005

If you need or want to use a particular format for a picture or process you are involved with, that is your choice and I cannot see that you have to justify that to anyone but yourself. A smaller format user may find that they get the results they want with their choice of equipment but that will not apply to everyone.

David · Jun 1, 2005

Ah, yes. The FUD factor. Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt. How did the skilled people get to be skilled? Were they born with the skills? I bet they didn't just roll out of their cradles with the skills and knowledge they now have. In other words, learning is a joy and everyone must travel a similiar road. The more one learns the more enjoyable it all becomes. Even if they were born that way it makes sense to me that those who overcome FUD (as opposed to those that didn't or don't have the problem (if they really exist)) have accomplished more than those who don't wrestle with it.

Enjoy your own journey and go where you will. Someone said, "Will the person who says it can't be done please stay out of the way of the person who's doing it". And anyway, who is the person that I need to justify myself to as a photographer? That would be one helluva job.

David H. Bebbington · Jun 1, 2005

Just who were the negative critics? The reactions in the APUG gallery seem universally positive. One thing is for certain, you do not need a permit or the approval of others to do what you feel like doing. The use of an 8x10" would seem logical, given the printing processes you prefer, and you seem to be adept at getting results, even apparently with a somewhat cantankerous old wooden camera. I personally prefer bromide prints to Van Dyke, with you it's obviously the other way round and you seem to have the skills to work with this process. So why worry - just keep on going!

Regards,

David

John Cook · Jun 1, 2005

In my experience, the difficulty in LF is only about the higher cost of the film, awkwardness of operation and weight of the camera. Being saddled with a huge tripod is like dragging around a set of bagpipes wherever I go.

The technique itself is actually easier than 35mm, and lends itself to novices. A big negative can withstand many more "slings and arrows" than a small one.

In art school we were limited to 4x5 Plus-X in D-76 for the first two years. It was felt that our skill level was not yet up to the smaller formats. The third year we were allowed 120 film, and finally 35mm in the senior year.

Looking back on my early work from those days, I was certainly a novice and my photographs were easily identifiable as those of a student. But I never actually lost a shot. From day one.

Somehow, as long as the view camera shutter opened and closed, I was assured some kind of a printable image. Not so with 35mm, which had to be "right on" to survive the massive enlargement onto a print.

These days, whenever I get out the EOS, it takes a half hour of scanning the instruction book to refresh my memory how to shut off the many labor-saving electronic devices so I can then work in peace and have my own way with exposure and focus. That thing has more buttons than a clarinet.

Adrian Twiss · Jun 1, 2005

The only justification you ever need is that the equipment/process met your needs and you found its use and results satisfying to you. With regard to level of expertise it helps to have a grounding in the basic photographic principals and also learn to work in a methodical manner. Both these can be easily learned by the novice.

John Bartley · Jun 1, 2005

scootermm said:
do you feel you have to justify yourself as a photographer in using a large format camera?

Justify ???

Hmph!! As if!!

It's your life - live it.

Do what makes you happy - just don't let what you do interfere with other peoples enjoyment of their own life.

Critics? - Use what they say constructively to increase your own enjoyment - ignore the rest - after all.......

It's your life - not theirs.

cheers

Bob F. · Jun 1, 2005

You need the skill, such as it is, to use a handheld meter and a basic understanding of exposure. You clearly have those skills so I've no idea what anyone suggesting otherwise was on, but it wasn't coffee... Some people are so locked into their own way of doing things that they can't imagine any other way as being equally as valid.

I think you need to ask them exactly what skill or ability it is that they think you are missing. Actually, don't bother... What other people think is of no real consequence if you are happy with what you are doing.

Cheers, Bob.

mmcclellan · Jun 1, 2005

In my experience, people learn photography BETTER when they shoot LF! It's difficult, it's expensive, but the extra effort and the discipline it imposes on the shooter makes that person a better photographer. In addition, there is nothing quite like learning to see while looking at a larger ground glass. One of the advantages of LF is that the photographer looks AT the ground glass and sees an image and composes accordingly. With smaller formats, the photographer looks THROUGH the camera at the subject, much like with binoculars, and there is less awareness of the qualities of the image itself. With LF, you tend to focus on the image, whereas with small format, you tend to focus on the subject (no pun intended). This is a big difference psychologically and aesthetically.

The other aspect I find so attractive about LF is the simple discipline it imposes. You can't bang off several rapid fire shots so one tends to compose more carefully, select subject matter and vantage point more carefully, and the work tends to be more contemplative and deliberate. Is this appropriate for all subject matter? Of course not -- for some things, 35mm can't be beat, but if you can use LF you're always going to be better off doing so. Better to shoot one image well on LF than a lot of junk on 35mm, which is what often happens.

I think it is not an accident that people often ask small format shooters, "did you GET a good picture?" Whereas with LF shooters, the question is more like, "Did you MAKE a good photo?"

Fortunately, we live in a fairly free world, so take advantage of your freedom and choose LF -- it's hard on the wallet, a bit hard on the back, but does wonders for your creativity. )

janvanhove · Jun 1, 2005

Why shoot LF ?

Because it's fun and because you like doing it...

Nay-sayers are just jealous that you're having so much fun making photographs...

PJ

rogueish · Jun 1, 2005

David said:
How did the skilled people get to be skilled? Were they born with the skills?

Didn't a respected photographer say something like "your first 10,000 are crap"?
Don't bother justifing, it just gets in the way of creation. If you enjoy it, can afford it, and are not hurting anyone/thing, then keep on creating and enjoying. Life's too short! Leave the justifying to that new lens you just gotta have...

Dan Fromm · Jun 1, 2005

What's to justify? LF cameras are tools, so are 35 mm cameras. LF cameras are better for some tasks, 35 mm cameras are better for others. Use the appropriate tool for the task and don't look back.

David A. Goldfarb · Jun 1, 2005

I've certainly improved my photography in other formats by shooting LF. A 35mm SLR is really quite a specialized tool, and was never intended to do everything, so I use it for what it does well, and shoot MF or LF when they are the best tool for the job. That's enough justification for me.

Also, it's just too much of a pain to look at 35mm contact prints.

Daniel Grenier · Jun 1, 2005

Turn it aorund, Scooterman, and ask the nay-syers (35mm,ers) how they can possibly justify shooting such a shockingly small negative! But seriously, you have to justify nothing to anyone. Shoot what you want, when you want, where you want, how you want. If YOU yourself can't justify your using LF, then change to something more suitable to your style. Otherwise, press on and damn the torpedoes.

photomc · Jun 1, 2005

Huh??? Keep doing what is right for you Matt. Having seen your work first hand, I know what you can do. You are the only one that can determine what is best for you and your position in life at any one time. Might also point out that if you were to switch to a smaller format, it would not help the pocket book much to start with, since I believe you would need to find an enlarger..plus new a new kit of some sort, so if you are happy shooting 8x10 and larger do it. Everything else is just someones own thoughts...they are welcome to have them, just figure that they have their own way of doing things...and thankfully you do not see things the same way.

p.s. - That's were those great images come from you showed us..you vision not their!

Jim Chinn · Jun 1, 2005

Matt,

If you enjoy working with the bigger formats then what anyone else says is irrelevant. You obviously have a talent for working with big cameras and alternative processes and of the work you showed you had some real gems.

One simple bit of advice. Don't give a rats ass about what anyone else thinks of anything you do. That is not to say critisism and suggestion should be ignored becuase we all learn from the input of others.

Anyone involved with creating in any medium is always looking for ways to improve their skill, vision, and expand their abilities. It simply comes with exposing film and printing.

Troy Ammons · Jun 1, 2005

scootermm said:
and then the other extent of having some people tell me I dont justify, nor have the skill and photographic sight to properly shooting with such a format as 8x10 (or for that matter 7x17 soon to be)

You have to wonder about people like this. I have run into them too, but mostly on DPreview.

Personally I think most of these types of people are misrible sods who are bored with their lives, and the only way they can feel better about themselves is to put other people down. They are probably threatened in some meaningless way by your venture on their turf.

I have always felt that people should do what makes them happy within reason. Life is short, and LF photography with all its quirks is one of the things that does it for me. I mean just look at 8x10 and larger cameras. They are so absurdly large you just have to smile. I will say when I set up on the side of a mountain there are a lot of curious people lurking around, want to see through the GG etc.

So the next time Joe Negative tries to put you down for doing something you love, just ignore them and smile, knowing that you live such a happier life then they do.

jd callow · Jun 1, 2005

scootermm said:
...
do you feel you have to justify yourself as a photographer in using a large format camera? as in, do you feel an obligation to be a certain skill level or to possess a certain amount of photographic mastery or talent to shoot large format cameras?

I shoot LF format because the subjects and my goals are best served by the movements, film size and versatility.

When I started I might not have had the skills and I may still be lacking. No one is great from the start, nor does everyone become great, but you have to set goals and strive to achieve them. I certainly haven't reached my goals and I suspect I never will. At some point I may decide to move on for lack of progress, but that will be my discission. If I shot LF simply as a form of self justification or because it fit my photographer image I'd be an idiot. If I'm happy with my progress and others don't agree so be it.

I sure as hell am not on this planet to live up to the expectations of other people.

User Removed · Jun 1, 2005

I shoot Large Format cameras to completely blow away even the best digital prints. An 8x10 contact print is FAR better then ANY 8x10 digital print you will see in this world.

I get this question all the time..."Why you using that old, ****y, heavy camera?!" "Why dont you just shoot digital? *beep* *beep* *beep* (fires off a few shots in random dirrections).

I was on the rim of the Grand Canyon and a guy walked up to me when I was photographing with my 8x10 to make an image. He asked me WHY I was doing that, and he explained that with his digital camera...he can shoot them image, go back to his car and load them on the laptop, and make fine prints right there in his car in 10 minutes. He called himself a Fine Art Professional Photographer. *beep* *beep* *beep* He fired off a few more images in some random dirrection, not even thinking about WHAT he was photographing.

Surly · Jun 1, 2005

I just read an old article by Bernice Abbot in "The Complete Photographer". The article was about using view cameras and in it she said the view camera was the most basic camera and should be used by all begginers. Its the 35mm and other types of camera that are "specialist" cameras. If you take this approach, there should be no justification neccesary. Just tell people your a begginer And if you can make prints that look like Bernice's.......well, again no justification neccesary.

jjstafford · Jun 1, 2005

If you fret about justifying your choice to the uninformed (by definition) masses, you lose. Don't waste time being an evangelist, either; it wastes energy and only annoys them.

Jorge · Jun 1, 2005

then the other extent of having some people tell me I dont justify, nor have the skill and photographic sight to properly shooting with such a format as 8x10 (or for that matter 7x17 soon to be)

LOL...Matt, next time you get an ass**** like this, ask him to show you some 8x10s of his work, then place one of your Van Dyke prints next to it and just say "this is why"......If we are going to overlook content (where one might like/dislike the subject matter) and concentrate solely on the "technical" reasons, nothing, and I mean nothing beats a contact print.

David H. Bebbington · Jun 1, 2005

Surly said:
I just read an old article by Bernice Abbot in "The Complete Photographer". The article was about using view cameras and in it she said the view camera was the most basic camera and should be used by all begginers. Its the 35mm and other types of camera that are "specialist" cameras.

This was of course in the early 1930s, when taking 35 mm pix that would enlarge grain-free and sharp demanded a very high skill level. View cameras are not necessarily difficult if you grew up with them (as I did) but for many people today the fact that there are no instructions on the GG, no buttons to push and no automation of anything is quite daunting.

One thing I always tell people who ask about view cameras - fit a bright screen if you can afford it, and particularly at the beginning carry some kind of portable viewfinder to get a rough idea of composition before you set up the camera (rather as movie directors do). I find if you do this, a view camera seems much less slow and cumbersome.

John Kasaian · Jun 1, 2005

No. Anything worth doing is worth doing. If I don't do it "right" or to a certain standard, then thats just part of the learning process---and learning is indeed something worth doing---so IMHO Chesterton was correct when he wrote: "anything worth doing is worth doing poorly" There are more important things in life to justify than photography---like your tax returns, for example :-0

Justifying the use of a large format camera...

scootermm

Nick Zentena

roy

David

David H. Bebbington

John Cook

Adrian Twiss

John Bartley

Bob F.

mmcclellan

janvanhove

rogueish

Dan Fromm

David A. Goldfarb

Moderator

Daniel Grenier

photomc

Jim Chinn

Troy Ammons

jd callow

Moderator

User Removed

Surly

jjstafford

Jorge

David H. Bebbington

John Kasaian

Justifying the use of a large format camera...

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