Just Starting Palladium

Hi Everyone, I'm ordering some chemicals this evening to give palladium a try and had a couple of random questions.
First off, my darkroom stays at a chilly 53 F during the winter months . I do have a heater in there while I'm working which keeps the temp nice but I can't leave the heater going all the time. What kind of ill effects will the cold temps have on the different solutions. Will the potassium oxalate crystalize? Will the ferric oxalate go bad?
Secondly, what is the best storage container for the potassium oxalate? Will glass be better or is plastic fine?

Cold is no issue for storage but many, including myself, use a coffee cup warmer to keep the chems heated as we prepare to mix. I work in a darkroom that ranges from 50F to 80F and have had no ill effects.

As for storage, I keep all my chems in a glass container.

Best of luck,

Plastic is ok for PotOx in my experience if it means saving you going to buy glass containers

Thanks Robert and Nick, I'm glad to hear everything will be ok in the cold. I'm excited to get started!

My understanding is that cold chemicals can introduce print quality issues (e.g. graininess). It's not something I've experienced as my darkroom is nice and warm all year round (and I can't define what "cold" is), but it may be something to consider if you get problems.

Actually, having a cold darkroom with a heater leads to humidy issues. As you heat the cold air, the humidity goes way down (extremely dry air). This will cause you to have coating issues -- upon coating it will soak into the paper all too quickly (with or without additional sizing), perhaps too quickly to get a good even brush-coat or rod coating. You'll use more materials to make up for this and they'll just generally get washed away during clearing (its not quite the same as double coating).

Further, Dick Arentz has mentioned slight color shift and sometimes a great sensitivity change with humidity changes (we went to humidification of the paper in a chamber prior to coating to solve both at last year's Masters Workshop at the Formulary.)

Suggest you get one of the cheap temperature/humidity guages. Light impressions sells one. You can get them elsewhere.

Consider buying one of the non-heating type room humidifiers (evaporative or ultrasonic) -- look in the pharmacy section of any of the bigger stores. I happen to use one by Vicks only because it was cheap and handy.

You may consider humidification of the paper prior to coating -- either in a self-built chamber (you'll need a humidity meter there as well...control the humidity by exposed surface area of the water) or by showing the paper surface to the humidifier stream (don't get it wet with droplets...get back a bit)....
There are many methods...find one that works for you and stick with it.

From whom are you buying your chemicals? Are you buying dry or liquids?

The reason for the question is that if you buy liquids (probably a bit more expensive, but perhaps preferable for newbies) from B&S (who are probably the best supplier out there), they will come in brown glass bottles.

As to the temperature, I don't think that storage in cool areas is an issue, but you may want the darkroom space to be a bit warmer while you are working there. The main reason for this is simply animal comfort - and you are the animal.

That said, some developers do give different results as a function of temperature. Specifically, potassium oxalate produces warmer results as it's temperature is elevated. Folks who want warm-toned results often keep it warming (in an old coffee maker) until just before it is used. On the other hand, I prefer cold toned results and use room temperature ammonium citrate as my developer.

For long-term storage, cold is actually good for Ferric Oxalate - it helps retard the conversion from Ferric to Ferrous. Room temperature for working solutions is ideal - between 60f and 80f is good. Palladium is pretty tolerant and doesn't start coming out of solution at temperatures you're likely to experience. You can use your Potassium Oxalate developer at room temperature if you like, it will work fine. PotOx will produce a warmer image tone the warmer the developer temperature. I keep mine hot using a 2L graduated cylinder filled with hot water as a tempering bath for the 1L bottle of PotOx. You can also use one of those coffee mug warmers if you like, but I found that I was dripping PotOx on the mug warmer over time.

Ian Leake said:

My understanding is that cold chemicals can introduce print quality issues (e.g. graininess). It's not something I've experienced as my darkroom is nice and warm all year round (and I can't define what "cold" is), but it may be something to consider if you get problems.

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Thanks Ian, I just re-read Platinum and Palladium Printing by Arentz and he does mention graininess from cold chemistry. I am planning to use a tempering bath while developing to try and remedy this. I have to do the same thing with silver gelatin.
By the way thanks for the PT/PD article, interesting read.

Don12x20 said:

Actually, having a cold darkroom with a heater leads to humidy issues. As you heat the cold air, the humidity goes way down (extremely dry air).

Suggest you get one of the cheap temperature/humidity guages. Light impressions sells one. You can get them elsewhere.

Consider buying one of the non-heating type room humidifiers (evaporative or ultrasonic) -- look in the pharmacy section of any of the bigger stores. I happen to use one by Vicks only because it was cheap and handy.

You may consider humidification of the paper prior to coating

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My darkroom humidity never seems to drop below 35% even with the heater going. I guess that's one good thing about an old house, the heat must be passing through the drafty walls and melting the frozen ground keeping the humidity higher
I do have a little evaporative humidifier ready to go and plan to keep it running around 50% humidity, I think Arentz recommends humidifying paper for at least 8 hours before coating. I thought I'd crank it up the night before and coat 12 hours later. Does this seem right?

Monophoto said:

From whom are you buying your chemicals? Are you buying dry or liquids?

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I am buying from B & S, they seem to have a much better reputation for this type of product. I went with the "Back to School Special". What a deal! I also decided to forego the A+B method and am going straight to NA2.
We seem to be at opposite ends of the spectrum, I'm going for the warm tones. Pure palladium and warm potassium oxalate.

Monophoto said:

For long-term storage, cold is actually good for Ferric Oxalate - it helps retard the conversion from Ferric to Ferrous. Room temperature for working solutions is ideal - between 60f and 80f is good. Palladium is pretty tolerant and doesn't start coming out of solution at temperatures you're likely to experience.

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Scott this is good to hear, I don't get into the darkroom as much as I'd like so I was a little worried the Ferric might turn on me before I would get to use much up, I've read the palladium and Na2 last for a very long time, so not too concerned there. As far as the palladium coming out of solution, what kind of temps are you talking about? It is supposed to go into single digit temps over the weekend and I can just see the chemicals sitting on the UPS truck freezing.
When is your article coming out on PT/PD and the Na2 method? I'm looking forward to it.

...., I think Arentz recommends humidifying paper for at least 8 hours before coating. I thought I'd crank it up the night before and coat 12 hours later. Does this seem right?

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Actually we were coating with less than an hour in the humidity chamber at 70-80% humidity. The difference in the highlights was very noticeable. Humidification extended the range significantly.

I try to keep my coating area around 70% humidity - pretty easy since I am in the Pacific Northwest.

PhotoBulley said:

Scott this is good to hear, I don't get into the darkroom as much as I'd like so I was a little worried the Ferric might turn on me before I would get to use much up, I've read the palladium and Na2 last for a very long time, so not too concerned there.

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B&S put a six-month shelf life on Ferric Oxalate, but my experience is that it will last longer, perhaps as long as a year.

The labels on both the Pt and Pd solutions, and also on NA2, say that they last 50 years.

Don12x20 said:

Actually we were coating with less than an hour in the humidity chamber at 70-80% humidity. The difference in the highlights was very noticeable. Humidification extended the range significantly.

I try to keep my coating area around 70% humidity - pretty easy since I am in the Pacific Northwest.

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Don, you should put a fern next to your UV light, I think it would be very happy.
Only an hour of humidification would make things a little easier. Thanks!

Monophoto said:

B&S put a six-month shelf life on Ferric Oxalate, but my experience is that it will last longer, perhaps as long as a year.

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Excellent, I should be able to get through a good portion of the FeOx by then. Especially with the amount of mistakes I'll be making.