Just how bad is blix vs bleach & fixer?

CatLABS · Apr 12, 2015

peter k. said:
As I understand it, this is a kit from Freestyle that is not a blix kit.
http://www.freestylephoto.biz/660161-Rollei-C-41-Color-Kit-5-Liter

"Kit Contains:

1 - Bleach Fix Part A - 1000ml
1 - Bleach Fix Part B - 1000ml
1 - Color Developer Part A - 500ml
1 - Color Developer Part B - 250ml
1 - Color Developer Part C - 250ml
1 - Stabilizer - 250ml
..."

Bleach Fix = Blix.

The only consumer size kit with separate bleach and fix for C41 was the CatLABS color kit, which is unfortunately no longer available.

peter k. · Apr 12, 2015

Ah.. color... sigh.. love it, but don't shoot much of it.. so the familiarity is not there, as I do not develop enough to really understand the terms clearly.
Thanks so much for the clarity ...

nworth · Apr 13, 2015

I too can see the difference between E6 processed with blix and E6 processed with bleach and fix. It has been some years since I used the Tetnal three bath process, but the difference between it and the Kodak E6 kit was quite noticeable. I looked at some of the results recently, and the Tetnal processed film does not seem to be holding up quite as well as the Kodak processed film (all of it Ektachrome). So, for whatever reason, there may be a difference in the stability of the results from the two processes. But we are talking about the processes as they were about 12 years ago. Tetnal may have improved, but I have no way of knowing if that is the case.

I wonder if a simple ferricyanide bleach followed by a rinse before the blix step would cure the three step process silver retention problem without affecting the color balance?

Rudeofus · Apr 13, 2015

nworth said:
I wonder if a simple ferricyanide bleach followed by a rinse before the blix step would cure the three step process silver retention problem without affecting the color balance?

Neither E6, nor C-41 materials are rated for Ferricyanide bleach, although many people have reported success. YMMV. See (there was a url link here which no longer exists) if you want to convert a set of BLIX concentrates/powders into a separate bleach that is compatible with E6 and C-41.

nworth · Apr 13, 2015

Rudeofus said:
Neither E6, nor C-41 materials are rated for Ferricyanide bleach, although many people have reported success. YMMV. See (there was a url link here which no longer exists) if you want to convert a set of BLIX concentrates/powders into a separate bleach that is compatible with E6 and C-41.

True, but a ferricyanide bleach (SR-29) is recommended for Eastman motion picture negative materials. While not the same, these are similar to C-41 materials in most respects.

Photo Engineer · Apr 13, 2015

ECN may have the same or different couplers in the current generation. IDK but for sure you should test before committing and make that a long term test of 5 years or so....

As for E6, the process REQUIRES formalin. There is a bleach prebath that contains a formalin precursor that is released during the process. Without that step, you will probably encounter dye stability problems.

PE

CatLABS · Apr 13, 2015

Photo Engineer said:
ECN may have the same or different couplers in the current generation. IDK but for sure you should test before committing and make that a long term test of 5 years or so....

As for E6, the process REQUIRES formalin. There is a bleach prebath that contains a formalin precursor that is released during the process. Without that step, you will probably encounter dye stability problems.

PE

C41 does not, alas, so why would any one have a problem with BLIX for C41?, again and again. The tetenal BLIX shelve life AFTER it is mixed to a working solution is around 6 months, and perhaps even closer to 12. when in concentrate and closed bottles, 24-36 months is not a stretch for that stuff (in E6 blix as well BTW, but thats another story). So, again, why?

chazum0 · Apr 13, 2015

Photo Engineer said:
C41 fix is any neutral pH fix such as TF5 or similar. The pH should be about 6.5.

As for a bleach, I will have to look one up.

PE

Assuming that the Kodak ammonium thiosulfate rapid fixer is not pH neutral, is it possible that I can use Kodak stop bath concentrate to adjust the pH?

Photo Engineer · Apr 13, 2015

chazum0 said:
Assuming that the Kodak ammonium thiosulfate rapid fixer is not pH neutral, is it possible that I can use Kodak stop bath concentrate to adjust the pH?

Use Ammonia or Acetic Acid to adjust pH of bleach, blix or fix.

PE

Photo Engineer · Apr 13, 2015

CatLABS said:
C41 does not, alas, so why would any one have a problem with BLIX for C41?, again and again. The tetenal BLIX shelve life AFTER it is mixed to a working solution is around 6 months, and perhaps even closer to 12. when in concentrate and closed bottles, 24-36 months is not a stretch for that stuff (in E6 blix as well BTW, but thats another story). So, again, why?

Well, C41 relies on DIR and DiAR couplers for color control. The material released is Phenyl Mercapto Tetrazole, among others and it is hard to remove from silver metal. Thus, bleaches are stronger than blixes to remove this residue and the silver.

If you do not remove it properly, then you can get granier pictures with desaturated colors due to residual silver. BTDT. If you read associated posts you will learn more.

PE

Roger Cole · Apr 13, 2015

When 3 bath E6 came out I was using a lot of the regular stuff. I compared it and found I actually slightly PREFERRED the results from the three bath. Dunno if that's changed but I certainly didn't have any problems with it. Shrug. Based on that experience I'm not at all reluctant to use bleach-fixes. I'd be concerned with stability if PE indicated I should be, but if it's just results in terms of color and grain I always got fine results with the combined bath. I suspect most everyone does which is why it's the common kind now. (Wasn't "blix" originally a term used only by Unicolor which seems to have become universal now?)

Rudeofus · Apr 14, 2015

Photo Engineer said:
As for E6, the process REQUIRES formalin. There is a bleach prebath that contains a formalin precursor that is released during the process. Without that step, you will probably encounter dye stability problems.

Tetenal has a formalin precursor in their STAB bath, so their E6 kit should be fine from this perspective.

Rudeofus · Apr 14, 2015

chazum0 said:
Assuming that the Kodak ammonium thiosulfate rapid fixer is not pH neutral, is it possible that I can use Kodak stop bath concentrate to adjust the pH?

The challenge is not the change in pH, but reliably reaching pH 6.5, which you won't be able to do without a pH meter. Unless you run huge volumes, it is unlikely that such a meter will save you money over getting a proper fixer that already has pH 6.5.

If you are committed to home brewing to the extent that you already have a pH meter, you might as well use proper acids/bases (as recommended by PE) to adjust pH, and not mess with stop bathes and the like.

chazum0 · Apr 14, 2015

Rudeofus said:
The challenge is not the change in pH, but reliably reaching pH 6.5, which you won't be able to do without a pH meter. Unless you run huge volumes, it is unlikely that such a meter will save you money over getting a proper fixer that already has pH 6.5.

If you are committed to home brewing to the extent that you already have a pH meter, you might as well use proper acids/bases (as recommended by PE) to adjust pH, and not mess with stop bathes and the like.

Ideally, I'd like to purchase a hand held pH meter, but since they're quite expensive, I guess I will have to settle with using test strips. I've been studying your thread on converting blix into separate bleach and fix components (which has been really helpful)--so far so good. I'm currently assembling my shopping list of chemicals...I may still have a few questions so its possible you'll be getting a PM from me soon.

And PE is right, I should be doing good science and use proper acids/bases.

Photo Engineer · Apr 14, 2015

Roger Cole said:
(Wasn't "blix" originally a term used only by Unicolor which seems to have become universal now?)

Blix was used internally by EK for several years before commercialization. On a tour of EK, some outside developers saw the bottles on the shelf, realized what it was and copyrighted the term. Therefore, EK was barred from using it. Those people ended up suing Kodak for use of a bleach fix which made the old bleach then fix outdated. So, they won two ways and both Kodak and Fuji refused to use the term Blix.

Agfa may have also used the term blix but I cannot remember. It was used for their type 5 and 6 papers in the '50s and '60s.

GAF built a paper to use the bleach then fix process and when EK came out with the "blix" process, they also sued EK and won. Interestingly, their paper went through the new process as good or better than the Kodak product. So, I doubt if they ever really gave it a fair comparison.

These are "rumors" and "stories" that went around at EK, except that the lawsuits are real.

PE

Just how bad is blix vs bleach & fixer?

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