Just how bad is blix vs bleach & fixer?

Photo Engineer · Oct 4, 2009

I have been studying the washless process.

Regarding retained silver levels, it is the silver metal specks that remain un-bleached that cause problems with image quality (grain, sharpness and color). Used properly, there should be none of these specks in a washless process, just some traces of silver halide complexes. The silver halide complexes retained in a washless process cause a different problem. They can affect image stability. I have no information on this whatsoever, but having examined the chemical changes in the bleach and fix, I see what they have done, and it follows from R&D I am familiar with and have been working on myself here. It can work. It apparently does. I have gotten good results from it. In fact, Super Universal Fix VIII uses similar chemistry based on my R&D at Kodak.

SUF VIII uses a method of swelling gelatin which facilitates removal of silver halide complexes from the coating and allows reduced wash times. It also forms a different type of complex.

PE

bob100684 · Oct 5, 2009

Photo Engineer said:
I am not aware that RA-4 processes are washless. I'll have to check.

I do know that C-41 can be washless but only using the C-41 Flexicolor RA Bleach and Fix. They have been modified to prevent problems with any possible retained silver complexes. In addition, the Final Rinse RA III must be used with this washless process.

If you don't use the proper chemistry, you can end up with unstable negatives.

You can use the RA chemistry with a wash however, with no problems.

PE

The fuji CN-16 process is wash less as well. Dev, bleach, fix1, fix 2(overflows to fix 1) then four seperatly replenished STAB tanks.

On the frontiers the final rinse is Deionized water with a tablet added to the tank....don't remember what was in the tablet but it sure smelled like chlorine.

chazum0 · Mar 30, 2015

Photo Engineer said:
Yes, you can make a film blix!

Now, let me explain the consequences and the reasons behind the problems.

1. Ammonium Ferric EDTA only comes as a liquid of about 40% concentration or about 400 g/l.

2. Ammonium Thiosulfate only comes as a liquid of about 60% concentration or about 600 g/l.

3. Sodium salts of the above are less soluble and come as powders. They are far less active than the ammonium salts.

Now, let us look at the E6 bleach and fix concentrates. The bleach itself consists of 2 bottles that total to approximately 3 Liters all on their own. The fixer consists of one bottle of 423 ml. Each of these makes up 1 gallon or 3.8 L of solution.

If you mixed each one up and then mixed them together to make a blix, the resultant mixture would be 50% more dilute than the original leading to less activity.

If you mix them together in 1 gallon (3.8 L) then they have the same working strength as desired in separate bleach and fix, but the oxidation and reduction power of the two main ingredients conflict and the solution becomes short lived (less than a month, perhaps less than a week).

Either of these would make a suitable blix given enough treatment time, but the first, if it worked, would be slow, and both methods would yield a very unstable blix. The second would be fast but very expensive.

Lets now look at C-41. Bleach III is at working strength as-is, so that adding hypo solution only dilutes it further and weakens it. The same arguments hold as above regarding stability. The blix would decompose rather quickly. So, you cannot make a good blix from C-41 chemistry as it exists. You need to reformulate and cant use Bleach III.

Powder kits made with sodium salts of the ingredients is possible, but these become very slow acting. Remember that sodium based fix solutions are not rapid fix solutions. You have to go to ammonium based fix solutions to have a rapid fix!

So, here is a quick rundown of the above:

Use solid powders and the blix is too slow.

Mix the bleach and fix parts normally then mix together, and the kit becomes weaker and less stable due to dilution. It also requires more time due to the loss in strength and you end up right back where you were with a bleach and fix situation. Mix the two parts without dilution if possible and the blix is fine for rate but much less stable. It becomes a one-shot essentially.

In the end, you have about equal costs or more with a blix due to the shorter shelf life after mixing and the lower capacity.

With a bleach-fix, the process is a tad more complex but not necessarily longer.

With a blix, there is a chance to have silver retention with some film / blix combinations. This is due to the heavy silver load, the type of silver developed, and certain inhibitors used in color films to control image quality. The dyes also act to protect the silver from the bleach and so the dye cloud must be rendered penetrable by the blix.

There are ways to limit any problems with blix kits.

Use a long blix time! Use 2x 4x the suggested time or more. It will not hurt. It does make the process longer.

Mix the two parts right before use and in the quantity you are going to use. Dont re-use it. But, this increases cost.

There is a summary of some of my work over a 30+ year period on bleaches and fixes. The Bleaches and Blixes included Copper, Cobalt, Iron and various organic oxidants in order to optimize Blixes for films.

As Ray said above, the problems with Blixes used with films were known years ago.

Best wishes to you all, and whatever you choose, may it work well for you.

PE

YES. Thank you so much for your help. This is exactly what I was lookin for.

Kilgallb · Apr 5, 2015

Photo Engineer said:
I can tell you how to make your own RA-4 Blix and your own C-41 bleach and fix. That is about it.

PE

Can you help us out here. I would like to make my own if it is a reasonably safe process and can be done with our normal weigh scales.

RPC · Apr 5, 2015

You might try a search on this site, or go through the archives. In going through the color archives in the past I have seen many bleach-fix, bleach, and fixer formulas from PE and others, often with useful information about their workings.

Photo Engineer · Apr 5, 2015

Kilgallb said:
Can you help us out here. I would like to make my own if it is a reasonably safe process and can be done with our normal weigh scales.

What do you want? This is a broad question.

RA4 blix:

100 ml NH4 Fe EDTA solution (standard in the industry)
100 ml NH4 Thiosulfate solution (another industry standard
10 g Na2 EDTA
10 g NH4 Sulfite

All in 1 L of water with pH to 6.5 with either acetic acid or ammonium hydroxide.

This should do.

PE

Pioneer · Apr 5, 2015

As long as this subject has resurfaced I am still looking for a good c-41 kit that uses bleach and fix separately. I was able to pick one up from Catlabs a while back but this one is no longer available.

A Kodak Flexcolor kit seems available, but it appears only to be designed for the mini-lab systems and there is no direction on how to use it with a Jobo, if it can at all.

If anyone has any guidance on this I would appreciate it, otherwise I am back to the Tetanal or Rollei kits.

Rudeofus · Apr 5, 2015

I can't point you to a source for a separate bleach&fix kit, but you may want to have a look at my (there was a url link here which no longer exists) for converting BLIX kits into separate bleach&fix setup. No special tools are required, and all the necessary chemistry can be easily sourced from Formulary, Suvatlar and other sources.

Photo Engineer · Apr 5, 2015

Pioneer said:
As long as this subject has resurfaced I am still looking for a good c-41 kit that uses bleach and fix separately. I was able to pick one up from Catlabs a while back but this one is no longer available.

A Kodak Flexcolor kit seems available, but it appears only to be designed for the mini-lab systems and there is no direction on how to use it with a Jobo, if it can at all.

If anyone has any guidance on this I would appreciate it, otherwise I am back to the Tetanal or Rollei kits.

The bleach and fix set here can be used with a Jobo.

PE

Pioneer · Apr 5, 2015

That is an exceptionally good review Rudeofus. I'll put together an order to the Formulary and prepare to try this out. Thanks a lot.

A note of clarification though. In your article you indicate that both Rollei and Digibase kits are already separate bleach and fixer kits but from what I can tell online the current Rollei offering is a Blix kit.

Pioneer · Apr 5, 2015

Photo Engineer said:
The bleach and fix set here can be used with a Jobo.

PE

Thanks PE. I really do need to pull up Kodak's information sheets on Processing and read them so I can get a better sense on how to use the various chemicals. Obviously the nice part with a kit is it gives you mixing and use directions for the specific chemicals in the kit.

The Catlabs kit (Champion Mydoneg startup set) was actually a pretty good kit. and it may even still be available as I see Mydoneg chemicals still being sold from various outlets.

I think I would rather use Kodak chemistry if I can sort it out as most of my experience with Kodak has been very consistent. All I really know is that at my current rate of use, it has become prohibitively expensive to send my film out for developing. My budget cannot absorb the lab costs anymore.

Rudeofus · Apr 6, 2015

Pioneer said:
A note of clarification though. In your article you indicate that both Rollei and Digibase kits are already separate bleach and fixer kits but from what I can tell online the current Rollei offering is a Blix kit.

You are right, I just stumbled upon this one Rollei Kit. In central Europe they have "Rollei Digibase C-41 Kits". It appears that Rollei owns and uses the Digibase brand and uses them at will. Thanks for the heads up!

peter k. · Apr 6, 2015

You are right, I just stumbled upon this one Rollei Kit.

I've looked at this kit in the past before reordering from Freestyle.. and/but perhaps I'm dense, can't seem to understand by searching in the archives if you can just successful just mix 1 litter at a time with this kit, and store the rest for future use?
Freestylephphoto is excellent, when having questions answered, but they really have no one at this time, that does color. Sigh, so have gotten no help there.
There seems to be so many options, and opinions, one way or the other... :confused:, when I check the archives.
I shoot very little color, but its spring now.. yet so very little versed in color developing, because it seems only at this time of year, that it comes up again.
I do understand this, I would love to get out of Blix use!
But five litters is an awful lot of developer, as it states in the PDF on the kit, that it processes up to 16 rolls of 35x36 films with 1 Liter of working solution. I shoot what would be equal to about a dozen rolls in MF and 35mm per spring. Yet to send it out, to be developed, its more expensive for the 12 rolls, than for a kit that can develop 80 rolls. But I hate to throw out anything, as the funds are tight, being retarded, (68yrs) and also wasting that which is purchased, and not used it to its full potential and capacity.

Anyone have a clear notion.. that can help and old 'art out, besides shooting more color.

Photo Engineer · Apr 6, 2015

Both Kodak and Fuji "agree" that a blix is bad for film and have made them separate as bleaches and fixes. Other companies, in attempts to upstage this process with a quicker process with fewer solutions have come out with blixes for films. These are either 2 part or 1 part.

ANY blix is less useful, less stable and has less capacity than any bleach then fix process.

If you insist on using a blix, you are going "against" years of process development at the major companies and you are wasting time and money on these second and third tier blixes. AFAIK, the developers are just fine, but you do need a final rinse with all kits.

PE

Rudeofus · Apr 6, 2015

@peter k.: yes, you can mix less than the whole 5l at once. You will have to make sure, though, that the remaining concentrate lasts until it is used up. Use protective gas for all concentrate containers except BX-A and STAB. The opened and then properly protected and resealed concentrates will stay intact for about a year, after which BX-B and CD-C concentrates will go bad. In my experience BX-B goes bad (yellow milky precipitate) long before CD-C keels over (strong discoloration). You don't need BX-B if you follow my BLIX--->bleach&fix conversion instructions, but replacing CD-C requires some experimentation.

peter k. · Apr 6, 2015

Photo Engineer said:
Both Kodak and Fuji "agree" that a blix is bad for film and have made them separate as bleaches and fixes. Other companies, in attempts to upstage this process with a quicker process with fewer solutions have come out with blixes for films. These are either 2 part or 1 part.

ANY blix is less useful, less stable and has less capacity than any bleach then fix process.

If you insist on using a blix, you are going "against" years of process development at the major companies and you are wasting time and money on these second and third tier blixes. AFAIK, the developers are just fine, but you do need a final rinse with all kits.

PE

Yes... thank you.. in your previous posts.. you convinced me... that's why I'm still trying.. to go Blix free.

peter k. · Apr 6, 2015

Rudeofus said:
@peter k.: yes, you can mix less than the whole 5l at once. You will have to make sure, though, that the remaining concentrate lasts until it is used up. Use protective gas for all concentrate containers except BX-A and STAB. The opened and then properly protected and resealed concentrates will stay intact for about a year, after which BX-B and CD-C concentrates will go bad. In my experience BX-B goes bad (yellow milky precipitate) long before CD-C keels over (strong discoloration). You don't need BX-B if you follow my BLIX--->bleach&fix conversion instructions, but replacing CD-C requires some experimentation.

First, before I reordered color developer this time, I did find your conversion instructions.. but trying to get my exposure, and developing, mostly B&W and then in gorgeous spring, color down to the method and developer that works best for me, just not ready to get into mixing chemicals yet..

Now I've read several of your posts, and others talking about 'charging' their storage bottles, but at last your giving me clarity, on which actual ones need to be protected for the specific color developer I'm interested in.
So a couple more questions:

I need a little more specific's on protective gasses, as I use marbles in pet bottles for B&W with D76, or Hc110 who's longevity last forever, anyway, often without anything done! So please point me to a location that explains how you use 'protective gasses', what type, and where do you purchase them from, how do you fill up your open bottles.. ect.. without spillage all over 'ell and back.

Ah... never got clarity out of this one.. does putting the chemicals in the refrigerator help..
Some do it, others say it makes no difference.. its the oxygen.. thru the wrong bottle container, not topped off or not sealed properly. Which to me, is the culprit, ... What say you?

Rudeofus · Apr 6, 2015

peter k. said:
I need a little more specific's on protective gasses, as I use marbles in pet bottles for B&W with D76, or Hc110 who's longevity last forever, anyway, often without anything done!

The reason I write about "protective gases" is that I don't want to be seen as a sales clerk for Tetenal (as I sure aren't one). Nevertheless, the only commercial and dedicated product for this purpose which comes to mind is Tetenal's Protectan spray, which you can order from Freestyle and probably a range of other sources (PS: I don't work for Freestyle either). Some people have reported success with lighter fluid, and if you feel adventurous you can try gas cylinders with anything inert that's heavier than air. The Protectan spray comes as simple spray can with a short piece of tubing which allows you to reliably fill bottles with narrow mouthes. It is overpriced IMHO, but will last much, much longer than the 5l kit you protect with it.

peter k. said:
Ah... never got clarity out of this one.. does putting the chemicals in the refrigerator help..
Some do it, others say it makes no difference.. its the oxygen.. thru the wrong bottle container, not topped off or not sealed properly. Which to me, is the culprit, ... What say you?

There are two effects at play which go in the opposite direction:

Reactions happen faster in hot liquids
Oxygen dissolves in higher amounts in cold liquids

The main reason why I don't refrigerate my chemistry is because I want to maintain a strict "cordon sanitaire" between my (and my family's) food and my photo chemistry. Unless you have a dedicated fridge for this, I'd say store your chems in some location that is difficult to find and access for people who don't know what it is or who may mistake it for some beverage.

As far as the bottles are concerned, I keep my concentrates in the bottles the kit came with, assuming these were chosen by the manufacturer for some reason.

peter k. · Apr 6, 2015

Ah, at last got it.. will do the do, thanks to you.. and PE

Photo Engineer · Apr 6, 2015

I use a tank of Nitrogen gas, which can usually be bought at the local welder's supply. You can either buy or rent the cylinder and the reduction valve(s). A small spray attachment can be placed on the end of normal tubing to give control in the lab. The tank lasts just about forever.

PE

peter k. · Apr 6, 2015

Well PE... hahaha.. funny... you got me digging, yep, found it.
Never throw anything out. Hahahh.. Got an old tank of my dad's, from wayyyy back, that he used for spray painting. He was a commercial artist. Has regulator and air line still attached. Have to find out if they will fill the cylinder, or if its past dated. Haha.. What a gas but in a different way.

What got me back into analog film, was when My neighbor said, sell your dad's old camera's (Nikon 35's +) and get yourself a digital and will go shooting. Ha... picked it up.. an Ftn, and put it in my lap, and it wrapped around me. Hmmm got the filters, got this and that..seem to have everything I need right here. All I need is some film!
Even, later converted the old Western Ranger 9 light meter to take modern batts, and been in love ever since.

Kilgallb · Apr 6, 2015

Photo Engineer said:
What do you want? This is a broad question.

RA4 blix:

100 ml NH4 Fe EDTA solution (standard in the industry)
100 ml NH4 Thiosulfate solution (another industry standard
10 g Na2 EDTA
10 g NH4 Sulfite

All in 1 L of water with pH to 6.5 with either acetic acid or ammonium hydroxide.

This should do.

PE

Sorry about the lack of clarity.

I was interested in making C41 fix and C41 bleach. Not blix.

Photo Engineer · Apr 6, 2015

C41 fix is any neutral pH fix such as TF5 or similar. The pH should be about 6.5.

As for a bleach, I will have to look one up.

PE

mklw1954 · Apr 12, 2015

So in the U.S. where do we find separate bleach and fix kits or reasonable volumes of these chemicals for home users? All the kits Freestyle sells are blix kits. Previously, they sold a Digibase bleach and fix kit but no longer. And my understanding is that the volumes of Kodak C41 chemicals are too large for home users.

I've used both Unicolor blix and Digibase bleach and fix kits (when they were available) and did not see any difference in results, based on being able to use the same exposure time and color filtration settings when making RA4 prints. The prints have excellent color and contrast. I have also gone back 4 years later and reproduced prints from both blix and bleach and fix developed negatives without any changes to the original conditions. While 4 years is not the test of time, it's something.

peter k. · Apr 12, 2015

So in the U.S. where do we find separate bleach and fix kits or reasonable volumes of these chemicals for home users? All the kits Freestyle sells are blix kits.

As I understand it, this is a kit from Freestyle that is not a blix kit.
http://www.freestylephoto.biz/660161-Rollei-C-41-Color-Kit-5-Liter

Just how bad is blix vs bleach & fixer?

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