"Just buy another one"

polka · Jun 19, 2018

I almost never buy a camera through the www... because I need to see them, to handle them and to examine them thoroughly. Besides, I never look for specific brands, I look for under-evaluated opportunities.

My latest catches : a Zenza Bronica S2 with its standard nikkor 2.8/75mm, an extra back and a set of close-up lenses. And a year later, two lenses for it : a nikkor 2.8/50mm and a zezanon 3.5/150mm (matching the same close-up lenses as the standard nikkor)

Polka
P.S. By the way, a friend showed me his Hassle-Bloat, I find my Bronica a lot sexier !

blockend · Jun 19, 2018

polka said:
Besides, I never look for specific brands, I look for under-evaluated opportunities.

That's a sensible approach in a post-film camera manufacturing era. The same applies to lenses. If you find a good one at a bargain price, getting a body to fit is no problem. I use three different 35mm systems, plus odds and ends, based on the bargain price I acquired the glass.

TonyB65 · Jun 19, 2018

Nothing lasts forever, and some cameras are just impossible to get repaired, I've just bought a mint condition Voigtlander Bessamatic Deluxe, everything works perfectly as the seller described. I bought it knowing that when it fails that'll be it, I hope to get years of use out of it, maybe I will, maybe I won't, but I'm not blind to that fact, I bought into it knowing that's the case. The chances of getting anyone to work on it are pretty much zero now, but I didn't pay a fortune for it, so I'll enjoy it while I can. I have other cameras that are much easier to get hold of and get fixed, such as my OM's, but the day will come when even they will not be repairable, that's life, you pay your money and make your choices, I have more than enough cameras to see me out so I don't worry.

Ces1um · Jun 19, 2018

I have always been of the mind that if I like something enough to use it, then it's worth fixing it. It bothered me when my pentax k2 died and I was told the shutter mechanism could not be repaired. Basically the repairman told me he would have to buy a camera for parts, then move them into my camera, and they would still be 30 year old parts. It was at that point that I realized just because I want to repair something doesn't mean that it's practical or even possible. I think we'll all face the loss of a camera we like simply because it's too old to repair.

Ste_S · Jun 19, 2018

Of course, getting the camera CLA'd isn't a guarantee that the camera will keep working.
I had a camera serviced a year ago by 'the' guy for that type of camera (now retired) and it's developed a problem a year on that may be terminal.

It's something that's going to happen increasingly in the future I guess. Cameras will brake down beyond repair as they get older whilst the people who used to service them aren't around any longer.
I can see prices for simple, mechanical, easily serviceable film cameras go up in the long term. If my Zeiss Ikon Nettar dies, worst case I reckon I've got a fair shot at repairing it myself following other peoples instructions.

I used to poo poo the idea of someone making a new film camera - why bother when there's so many used ? But in the long term I realise 35mm/120 film can't survive without the introduction of new cameras. Shame the Elbaflex and it's Kickstarter ilk all look dead in the water.

Ko.Fe. · Jun 19, 2018

BradS said:
The particular model in this study has very little electronics. Really, just a button cell, a light meter on/off switch, a couple of CdS cells, a few resistors, a meter (modular) the resistor (?) ring for shutter speed and another for film speed and various electrical contacts here and there. These last few items seem prone to soft failures due to oxidation.

It doesn't matter. You have to understand what it is not about more or less electronics, but type and age.
Electronics from seventies are failing. This is it.

BradS · Jun 19, 2018

Ko.Fe. said:
It doesn't matter. You have to understand what it is not about more or less electronics, but type and age.
Electronics from seventies are failing. This is it.

Luckily, the electronics are only for the meter.

flavio81 · Jun 19, 2018

Ko.Fe. said:
It doesn't matter. You have to understand what it is not about more or less electronics, but type and age.
Electronics from seventies are failing. This is it.

Too much myth is spread around here about electronics fallure. Camera electronics are very reliable, even for 70s cameras. Just as you can CLA mechanical parts, you can seevice the electrics and electronics for the most part, unless you have something like a dead IC, which is an extremely rare thing to happen.

BradS · Jun 19, 2018

flavio81 said:
Too much myth is spread around here about electronics failure. Camera electronics are very reliable, even for 70s cameras. Just as you can CLA mechanical parts, you can service the electrics and electronics for the most part, unless you have something like a dead IC, which is an extremely rare thing to happen.

This is a good point. The electronics in the are all simple discrete parts. These are all easily sourced and easily replaced. Even I can replace a through-hole 1/8 watt resistor.

guangong · Jun 19, 2018

I remember looking at the cameras in the AP’s camera storage cabinets...all beat to hell. Think Reagan’s comment about not washing a rented car. On the other hand, I have known photojournalists who took very good care of their cameras and equipment and it often seemed to me to work better than new.
A true artist treats his equipment with respect.

paul ron · Jun 19, 2018

when you buy from flea bay, its a crap shoot what you will get. spend a few bucks more and buy either local or from a reputable dealer like KEH, at least get a return policy.

so far, buying here in the classifieds has proven to be a safe bet as well... and tge prices are usually very fair.

benjiboy · Jun 19, 2018

I have four Canon F1s two of which (the New F1- AEs) I have had for about thirty years, and two F1ns bought in the last twelve years, all these cameras were bought second hand and as far as I know, none of them has ever been serviced they are all in perfect working order in a recent comparison test of the accuracy of their TTL light meters I conducted with a Kodak Grey Card and a digital spot meter their readings all agreed with each other within a third of a stop which considering some of the cameras are almost forty years old isn't bad.
I have never believed that cameras are like cars and need regular servicing, however, If any of my cameras malfunctioned I would not hesitate to have it serviced.

blockend · Jun 19, 2018

paul ron said:
when you buy from flea bay, its a crap shoot what you will get.

It's getting worse. 2009-2012 when I bought most of my stuff, you had to be unlucky to get a dog. Now the quality is all in Japan, and at the pricey end.

CMoore · Jun 19, 2018

I hear you OP...never understood the "Buy Another" either.
Buy what.?.....another 30-50 year old camera that needs work.
When Canon made the F-1
or Nikon the F2
or Pentax the MX
etc etc etc
They NEVER considered the problems people would encounter 30-40-50 years down the road.
A Canon A-1 bought from Ebay certainly might "function" but there is no way it will be Working to spec if it has never been serviced ...and most never were.

TonyB65 · Jun 20, 2018

CMoore said:
I hear you OP...never understood the "Buy Another" either.
Buy what.?.....another 30-50 year old camera that needs work.
When Canon made the F-1
or Nikon the F2
or Pentax the MX
etc etc etc
They NEVER considered the problems people would encounter 30-40-50 years down the road.
A Canon A-1 bought from Ebay certainly might "function" but there is no way it will be Working to spec if it has never been serviced ...and most never were.

I have 60 year old folding cameras that are still working exactly as they were intended, in fact virtually all of my second hand cameras work fine. I buy carefully and if it's off ebay I makes sure the seller specifies they are fully working so I have recourse if they're not. I expect most of them have not been serviced, as it's usually specified if they have. I have a penchant for Ziess Ikon Contaflex and Voigtlander Bessamatics, highly engineered leaf shutter SLR's that are very complex mechanically. There are many Contaflex's around but many are faulty, but even then I have scored fully working examples. In my experience it all comes down to how they were stored, as most have been in cupboards and lofts for decades. If they've been kept dry and an in reasonable temperatures they will usually work fine, in damp lofts and basements? that never ends well. Most of my cameras have not had heavy use, quite obviously by their condition, so it's not hard to score good equipment that works fully and that will work for many more years to come. You will have to pay a bit more for it, but not that much in my experience. Buy cheap buy twice, there is still lots of great cameras with loads of life left in them out there, for now.

benjiboy · Jun 20, 2018

I would pay to have a pro-grade (Nikon, Canon, Leica Pentax, Rolleiflex) camera that I used regularly serviced, but doubt if I would for the consumer S.L.R. cameras of the seventies and eighties whose designers and engineers when selecting the materials to make them out of and the engineering tolerances they would be manufactured to when starting the project never actually envisaged them to have a service life forty or more years. The fact is that the majority of these cameras have never had any maintenance, are worn out, and have reached the end of their service life.

TonyB65 · Jun 20, 2018

benjiboy said:
I would pay to have a pro-grade (Nikon, Canon, Leica Pentax, Rolleiflex) camera that I used regularly serviced, but doubt if I would for the consumer S.L.R. cameras of the seventies and eighties whose designers and engineers when selecting the materials to make them out of and the engineering tolerances they would be manufactured to when starting the project never actually envisaged them to have a service life forty or more years. The fact is that the majority of these cameras have never had any maintenance, are worn out, and have reached the end of their service life.

That hasn't been my experience of it at all. Many of these cameras have hardly been used, luxury buys just occasionally used for holidays and family get togethers, then chucked in a cupboard. Obviously certain pro spec cameras have had heavy use, but it's pretty obvious when cameras have been used like this, because they have all the battle scars of heavy use. I'm frequently amazed at the condition of the cameras I pick up. Film users always had to be cost and time conscious, so unless used by a Pro many of these cameras have hardly been used in reality. I have 6x9 folders, 50's, 60's and 70's era cameras that are still pristine. About the only issues some have are foam light seals degrading, which is easily fixed.

Ebay is chock full of cameras still in excellent condition, as long as they have been stored sensibly, which is always the thing I look out for, the give away is usually fungus in a lens. Of course it depends on where you live, in the UK, in a temperate climate, cameras will last a lot longer than in a tropical environment. I picked up a mint condition Pentax S1a recently, the lens was stuck on it, and the mirror stuck in the up position, I simply opened the back up, freed the lens which was trapped by a stuck lever, then removed the bottom plate and lightly oiled the gears with clock oil, it virtually instantly freed itself, the mirror dropped and it works like new now, all shutter speeds bang on. It had obviously been stored in a dry centrally heated cupboard for many years. A great camera, in great condition restored to mint condition with a bit of thought, it'll probably outlast me. My Pentax 67 on the other hand has had heavy use, it has the scars to prove it, but I knew that when I bought it, but it's still going, you just have to wind on carefully and it works great, I'll use it and enjoy it until it fails, and in due course buy another body for that eventuality.

johnha · Jun 20, 2018

I bought a KX online, the meter was inconsistent and hesitant to work and 'bouncy' when it did. My 'expert' attempts at troubleshooting resulted in finally achieving consistent behaviour - of the non-working variety. Annoyed, I threw it in the cupboard and forgot about it (it will work without but I have an MX and K1000 with working meters that are much more convenient to use). When I had my LX sticky mirror repaired, I sent the KX off as well. the repair & CLA cost similar to buying another used one in unknown condition, I decided since I broke it, I should get it fixed (or rather it deserved to be fixed if possible).

I also have a K2 with a faulty shutter - it always fires at the sync speed. I've decided not to have this looked at because I don't like the ISO ring on the lens mount (it's almost impossible to change ISO), and I doubt it's likely it could be fixed. I have a Super-A which has no power apart from the viewfinder LCD illumination, probably a dodgy connection in the mode dial - I love the camera but have decided to concentrate on mechanical bodies. I've got a P6x7 which has been battered by previous owner(s) and only meters in stop-down mode for some strange reason - the meter chain is OK. It's not really a problem so I'm going to leave it as-is.

blockend · Jun 21, 2018

benjiboy said:
I would pay to have a pro-grade (Nikon, Canon, Leica Pentax, Rolleiflex) camera that I used regularly serviced, but doubt if I would for the consumer S.L.R. cameras of the seventies and eighties

TonyB65 said:
That hasn't been my experience of it at all. Many of these cameras have hardly been used,

Both are true in my experience.

The best condition cameras at the lowest price I've bought have been entry level SLRs of the early 2000s. These typically overlapped digital cameras and sat in a drawer virtually from day one. If they were used at all it was lightly, and as amateur kit would have been mollycoddled in well padded cases. Plenty come with their original boxes and all the paperwork and are to all intents brand new. Clearly, they are not built for professional use but will give some years of service, and enjoyed the trickle down technology of their professional brethren.

Service costs make these cameras disposable, and I bought mine at disposable camera prices. Likewise my Yashica FR, a camera I like very much and for which I possess six lenses, has a broken frame counter. This was a known flaw in an otherwise well built camera. I could have it repaired, but a replacement part would come from a doner body and is a poor design and likely to fail again. For my purposes a frame counter is almost irrelevant - I often forget to reset manual counters. There's no doubt when the film comes to an end.

On the other hand if you have a favoured mechanical camera on which you do most or all of your photography, a CLA or repair is essential if its to continue working at volume. For a second string camera that comes out a few times a year and exposes as expected, maybe not. Some collectors want their cameras working as they left the factory even if those cameras never see another film.

TonyB65 · Jun 21, 2018

blockend said:
Both are true in my experience.

The best condition cameras at the lowest price I've bought have been entry level SLRs of the early 2000s. These typically overlapped digital cameras and sat in a drawer virtually from day one. If they were used at all it was lightly, and as amateur kit would have been mollycoddled in well padded cases. Plenty come with their original boxes and all the paperwork and are to all intents brand new. Clearly, they are not built for professional use but will give some years of service, and enjoyed the trickle down technology of their professional brethren.

Service costs make these cameras disposable, and I bought mine at disposable camera prices. Likewise my Yashica FR, a camera I like very much and for which I possess six lenses, has a broken frame counter. This was a known flaw in an otherwise well built camera. I could have it repaired, but a replacement part would come from a doner body and is a poor design and likely to fail again. For my purposes a frame counter is almost irrelevant - I often forget to reset manual counters. There's no doubt when the film comes to an end.

On the other hand if you have a favoured mechanical camera on which you do most or all of your photography, a CLA or repair is essential if its to continue working at volume. For a second string camera that comes out a few times a year and exposes as expected, maybe not. Some collectors want their cameras working as they left the factory even if those cameras never see another film.

Every single film camera I own, which is plenty, from 1950's folders to 90's era plastic fantastic SLR's work perfectly, except my OM1 which sometimes needs a double tap when winding on, and my Pentax 67 which just needs to be wound deliberately to avoid slipping, both work but have those quirks. I even have a Kiev 60 which has no faults whatsoever, even the dancing red light meter on it works, and is accurate. Some of these cameras were recovered from auctions where they were tossed into camera bags and closets and forgotten for years. My biggest disappointment was an early Contaflex which has a sticking shutter, a common fault with those, but I've since got two more that work perfectly, one of them is a Contaflex Rapid, which is by some distance the rarest of them all, and it works perfectly. Of course there are plenty of beaters out there, but careful scrutiny and asking the right questions means I've built up a nice collection of fully working, good to excellent condition cameras, and I haven't spent a fortune to do it. I use every camera I buy at least once and none of them will decrease in value. I haven't found it difficult, you just need a little patience and diligence to do it. I get great pleasure from resurrecting these cameras and using them, it's a big part of shooting film for me.

blockend · Jun 21, 2018

TonyB65 said:
I use every camera I buy at least once

That isn't how cameras were designed to be used.

TonyB65 said:
I get great pleasure from resurrecting these cameras

Neither is that.

Cameras are designed for taking pictures. People may derive pleasure from fixing them and collecting them, but that was never why they were created. If you have one or two cameras and take lots of photographs with them, they need to work properly. If they're used once, an accommodation can be reached with their flaws without affecting your photographic output.

TonyB65 · Jun 21, 2018

blockend said:
That isn't how cameras were designed to be used.

Neither is that.

Cameras are designed for taking pictures. People may derive pleasure from fixing them and collecting them, but that was never why they were created. If you have one or two cameras and take lots of photographs with them, they need to work properly. If they're used once, an accommodation can be reached with their flaws without affecting your photographic output.

I said at I use them at least once, that clearly doesn't mean only once, in most cases it's a lot more. Obviously I do use them to take pictures, I tried using them as hammers but it didn't work out. Regardless of how many times I've used them, and despite their age, they all just keep working, so I have no idea what your point actually is?

blockend · Jun 21, 2018

TonyB65 said:
so I have no idea what your point actually is?

I thought it was clear but I'm happy to repeat it. In a era when film cameras are not the tool of choice for most photography, and their financial value is generally low, maintaining a lot of cameras for their photographic reliability isn't necessary. Depending on the circumstances and the camera in question, just buy another one may or may not be sound advice.

TonyB65 · Jun 21, 2018

blockend said:
I thought it was clear but I'm happy to repeat it. In a era when film cameras are not the tool of choice for most photography, and their financial value is generally low, maintaining a lot of cameras for their photographic reliability isn't necessary. Depending on the circumstances and the camera in question, just buy another one may or may not be sound advice.

Sure, I'm just not sure what that has to do with anything I said or how I use my cameras.

removed account4 · Jun 21, 2018

hi brad

some stuff is worth fixing and other stuff, well, not worth fixing.
i've put 2 carboraters on my lawnmower because they aren't worth fixing
i've replaced the dish racks in my dishwasher because they weren't worth fixing
i've gotten thngs cla'd ( overhauled ) because i was told it was junk and not worth fixing
and had cars repaired when told they werne't worth fixing ... i guess it all depends on
the reliabilty after you overhaul / fix and measure that against what might wear out next in the wear cycle ( and if its replaceable )
and lucky for you, you have a whole bunch of parts now to replace anything you want like a 67 DE-luxe vdub in the woods as a parts hog.

have fun !

"Just buy another one"

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