"Just buy another one"

BradS · Jun 18, 2018

A while ago, I posted here inquiring where to have my 1970's era, high end, consumer grade SLR overhauled (all the shops I had dealt with in the past are now closed). One of the initial responses was, "just buy another"....the idea seemed absurd to me and I rejected it but after a while, thought that I'd do an experiment. I shopped carefully on eBay. I must have looked at a hundred or so listings. I only bid on those that seemed like they might be usable as sold (expect for two see below). I bid conservatively and here's what I got....

Body #7

Overall - seems pretty good. May actually fulfill the "just buy another".
Meter - accurate when it is not stuck at full scale / erratic?
Mechanical - ok
Cosmetics - ok, small bump on prism, Black!
Viewfinder - good, split screen
Eyepiece - ok
Battery compartment - ok
Mirror damper - good
Door seals - marginal?

Body #6

Meter - working but not accurate
Mechanical - ok
Cosmetics - Beautiful
Viewfinder - full of black specks
Eyepiece - ok
Battery compartment - ok
Mirror damper - Bad/ missing
Door seals - gooey

Body #5

Overall OK. might be worth having overhauled
Meter - Jumpy / erratic, shutter speed ring?
Mechanical - stiff shutter speed selector
Cosmetics - good
Viewfinder - ok, split screen
Eyepiece - ok
Battery compartment - ok
Mirror damper - poor
Door seals - yuck!

Body #4 -- original, current user.

Overall - good user condition
Meter - ok
Mechanical - ok
Cosmetics - good
Viewfinder - ok
Eyepiece - ok
Battery compartment - light corrosion
Mirror damper - marginal
Door seals - so-so.

Body #3

Meter - Good
Mechanical - ok
Cosmetics - rough
Viewfinder - ok
Eyepiece - ok
Battery compartment - ok
Mirror damper - bad
Door seals - bad

Body #2

Meter - ok
Mechanical - ok, flash sync not working?
Cosmetics - nice
Viewfinder - ok
Eyepiece - ok
Battery compartment - corrosion cleaned up ok.
Mirror damper - ragged / mostly gone
Door seals - poor

Body #1

Meter - erratic
Mechanical - film transport is irregular
Cosmetics - Bump on prism
Viewfinder - ok
Eyepiece - none
Battery compartment - corrosion cleaned up ok
Mirror damper - ok
Door seals - ok

Body #0

Overall condition: partially disassembled, parts / scrap.
Meter - erratic
Mechanical - intermittent shutter not loading.
Cosmetics - poor, big scar on back below film advance lever
Viewfinder - dirty
Eyepiece - missing
Battery compartment - ok
Mirror damper - none / gone
Door seals - poor

Body 00

Overall condition: completely disassembled. parts / scrap
Meter - ok
Mechanical - jammed / broken shutter clockworks
Cosmetics - ok
Viewfinder - very dirty. split image focusing aid.
Eyepiece - missing
Battery compartment - clean
Mirror damper - poor
Door seals - gooey

Summary:
I bought eight (!!!) cameras only one of which would I actually say is usable as purchased. Three of them are nice enough to consider sending out for a CLA. To be fair, I bought camera 0 and 00 (the last two in the list above) knowing that they were essentially junk. I've partially disassembled these to see how this particular model is made. So, I spent $20 on each of those two for a little bit of education. One of these was full of bits of deteriorated mirror damper foam and what looked like little bits of shredded film. One benefit of a professional CLA is that the technician will clean all that crap out of the works. If you just change the foam, you still have a camera full of bits of deteriorated foam.

I spent about $20~$25 on average for each of the other six bodies...for a total of $120~$150. Out of those, I got one pretty decent user and two or three others that are decent enough to have CLA'd, and three that are probably going to the junk box.

I have no regrets, it has been fun shopping and I did find a very nice Black body in decent user condition but economically, it does not make sense to "just buy another" 45 year old 35mm SLR when the one you have just needs a good routine maintenance service. I ended up sending one new-to-me of the bodies out to be serviced...for $125 it will come back as good a new.

BradS · Jun 18, 2018

on the other hand....

I also recently bought a nice Mamiya nc1000 with lens for ~$45. It cleaned up nicely and works perfectly. Of course, it's not 45 years old either.

summicron1 · Jun 18, 2018

this is so true -- the old trope that "it's not worth fixing" is only true if you are a dealer -- it certainly doesn't make sense to spend $125 servicing a camera that you will turn around and sell for $50.

On the other hand, if you are a user, you want your tool to be as good as it can be and the original cost of that tool is irrelevant -- you buy the tool, then you spend the money it takes to make that tool do the job.

A lot of people fail to have perfectly good old cars serviced for this same thinking -- so they spend $25,000 to replace a 10-year-old car that needed $2,000 in work because "it's not worth that much."

Only if you are a car dealer.

flavio81 · Jun 18, 2018

BradS said:
on the other hand....

I also recently bought a nice Mamiya nc1000 with lens for ~$45. It cleaned up nicely and works perfectly. Of course, it's not 45 years old either.

I would love to own that camera. How do you like it? Can you briefly review it compared to competing 35mm compact SLRs?

I'm a big fan of Mamiya medium format gear, love their lenses as well.

BrianShaw · Jun 18, 2018

It’s not just about dollars and cents but about reliability. For me it’s mostly about reliability so I don’t flinch at spending more than a camera is “worth” to ensure that it’s well-maintained. Unless it’s just being used as a toy, of course.

DWThomas · Jun 18, 2018

That's an interesting study! I too have a lot of misgivings about "just buy another one" unless it's a new item in current production. If you look over the course of history of a specific make and model (camera or even car!), there is often a predominant failure mode -- light seals, mirror bumper, rapid wind ... It seems likely another machine of the same model and vintage has an elevated probability of having the same problem. On the other hand, if one has a long history with a specific camera, maybe even since new, one at least has some idea of what sort of life it has lived, abuse suffered, etc. Investing in restoring the one we know seems less risky than a "pig in a poke."

My 2017 Christmas present to myself (and the camera!) was to get a CLA on my Yashica 124G. It was basically functioning, but I noticed in cold weather the shutter release button was sluggish in returning after a shot. With postage, it cost as much as I paid for the camera -- but then what have I spent for the 40 or 50 rolls of film already fed through it?! Might as well have it working right, and servicing before it failed altogether might easily prevent some incipient problem. (It has to be over 30 years old -- and I'm coming up on 77 -- another 30 years ought to do it! )

Sirius Glass · Jun 18, 2018

Every camera should be evaluated on its condition, usefulness, film availability, and cost of repair and maintenance.

Ko.Fe. · Jun 18, 2018

Applying "Just buy another one" for cameras with electronics from seventies is as smart as saying "they are all junk".

faberryman · Jun 18, 2018

BradS said:
A while ago, I posted here inquiring where to have my 1970's era, high end, consumer grade SLR overhauled (all the shops I had dealt with in the past are now closed). One of the initial responses was, "just buy another"....the idea seemed absurd to me and I rejected it but after a while, thought that I'd do an experiment. I shopped carefully on eBay. I bid conservatively....and here's what I got....

What specific camera model did you buy?

guangong · Jun 18, 2018

after many decades of use, sometimes 4 or 5 decades at least, I initiated a program of having most of my cameras and many lenses CLAed. Not infrequently costs were not only more, but a lot more, than buying a replacement, especially for my Leicaflexes and Nikon Fs that I bought new. Also did same for my movie cameras.
Firstly, cameras and lenses are old friends that perform as they are expected; secondly, I know every moment of their history and how they have been treated through the decades ( I have no doubt what caused the dent in my Rollei 35); thirdly, I have reliability. The next candidate for service is my 300mm MacroKilar...a complex diaphragm needs service that I have been using since my Hassy 1000F days.
As I look at it now, the cameras are free and only need a CLA.
My one regret...nobody to service my 2000FCM

BradS · Jun 18, 2018

Ko.Fe. said:
Applying "Just buy another one" for cameras with electronics from seventies is as smart as saying "they are all junk".

The particular model in this study has very little electronics. Really, just a button cell, a light meter on/off switch, a couple of CdS cells, a few resistors, a meter (modular) the resistor (?) ring for shutter speed and another for film speed and various electrical contacts here and there. These last few items seem prone to soft failures due to oxidation.

BradS · Jun 18, 2018

flavio81 said:
I would love to own that camera. How do you like it? Can you briefly review it compared to competing 35mm compact SLRs?

I'm a big fan of Mamiya medium format gear, love their lenses as well.

I like it a lot. It is what one would expect from Mamiya, outstanding optics with just enough "other stuff" to keep the dark inside the box.
I'll write up a separate review as it does have some interesting quirks.

BradS · Jun 18, 2018

faberryman said:
What specific camera model did you buy?

Nikkormat FTN. one of the junk bodies was an FT-2.

I bought the first on on a whim at a local American Cancer Society thrift store, used it for a bit and just love this camera (almost as much as the Spotmatics).

Dali · Jun 18, 2018

Buying another camera is a bad advice as you end up with a pile of unreliable cameras. Instead, whatever it costs, do yourself a favor and get your camera CLAed by a real repairman. Reliability is the key word when using old cameras.

Pentode · Jun 18, 2018

Count me in as another one who doesn't buy into "Just buy another one". For all the reasons already stated, it's far too easy to buy a camera with the same problems as the one you already have has or far more. It irks me in particular when I hear it from repair people. "It's not worth it to fix that when you can get another one for $50" is not what I want to hear from a service tech. They should know better than anyone what that $50 camera could have wrong with it.

Aside from the pitfall of buying someone else's problems, I also have an aversion to throwing things away if they can be fixed. It just bothers me. I have been known to fix cameras that were not very practical to fix but I just didn't want to display them on a shelf or throw them into a landfill.

As Sirius Glass points out, each case needs to be evaluated in context. Would I spend money to CLA a Kodak Tourist? No, I definitely would not. There are lots of others I would, though (Nikkormats being among them).

faberryman · Jun 18, 2018

If you actually want to use the camera, CLAing a camera makes more sense than buying a pig in a poke, which I think is what the OP's experiment has shown.

Paul Howell · Jun 18, 2018

Without knowing the brand, mount, and type don't know what to make of your experiment. High end consumer means what? I bought 7 Mirandas over the years, all are working, some are matched needle, a couple EEs, I had one CLA not long ago, no issues. On the other hand I also bought 5 Petri and only 1 is totally functional, 3 work but the meters are not working, one has a jammed shutter. Like you I paid $10 to $25 for each. I also have a collection of Minolta AF bodies ranging from low end consumer to the Minolta 9 and a 7, all work. Reliability is dependent on the brand.

Sirius Glass · Jun 18, 2018

guangong said:
after many decades of use, sometimes 4 or 5 decades at least, I initiated a program of having most of my cameras and many lenses CLAed. Not infrequently costs were not only more, but a lot more, than buying a replacement, especially for my Leicaflexes and Nikon Fs that I bought new. Also did same for my movie cameras.
Firstly, cameras and lenses are old friends that perform as they are expected; secondly, I know every moment of their history and how they have been treated through the decades ( I have no doubt what caused the dent in my Rollei 35); thirdly, I have reliability. The next candidate for service is my 300mm MacroKilar...a complex diaphragm needs service that I have been using since my Hassy 1000F days.
As I look at it now, the cameras are free and only need a CLA.
My one regret...nobody to service my 2000FCM

Dali said:
Buying another camera is a bad advice as you end up with a pile of unreliable cameras. Instead, whatever it costs, do yourself a favor and get your camera CLAed by a real repairman. Reliability is the key word when using old cameras.

Pentode said:
Count me in as another one who doesn't buy into "Just buy another one". For all the reasons already stated, it's far too easy to buy a camera with the same problems as the one you already have has or far more. It irks me in particular when I hear it from repair people. "It's not worth it to fix that when you can get another one for $50" is not what I want to hear from a service tech. They should know better than anyone what that $50 camera could have wrong with it.

Aside from the pitfall of buying someone else's problems, I also have an aversion to throwing things away if they can be fixed. It just bothers me. I have been known to fix cameras that were not very practical to fix but I just didn't want to display them on a shelf or throw them into a landfill.

As Sirius Glass points out, each case needs to be evaluated in context. Would I spend money to CLA a Kodak Tourist? No, I definitely would not. There are lots of others I would, though (Nikkormats being among them).

faberryman said:
If you actually want to use the camera, CLAing a camera makes more sense than buying a pig in a poke, which I think is what the OP's experiment has shown.

As pointed out multiple times when you have your own camera CLAed, you know the past history and the problems. When you buy a replacement camera you do not know the provenance, thus you may buy many more problems than you had with your camera.

flavio81 · Jun 18, 2018

So, assuming all are Nikkormats of FT/FTN/FT2 variety, my comments:

Body #7

Overall - seems pretty good. May actually fulfill the "just buy another".
Meter - accurate when it is not stuck at full scale / erratic?
Mechanical - ok
Cosmetics - ok, small bump on prism, Black!
Viewfinder - good, split screen
Eyepiece - ok
Battery compartment - ok
Mirror damper - good
Door seals - marginal?

Erratic meter is, invariably, due to the variable resistor around the lens mount (and brushes) requiring cleaning. Typical service that does good to Nikkormats.

Body #6

Meter - working but not accurate
Mechanical - ok
Cosmetics - Beautiful
Viewfinder - full of black specks
Eyepiece - ok
Battery compartment - ok
Mirror damper - Bad/ missing
Door seals - gooey

See previous answer. Bad contact / bad ground contact will give non-accurate readings. Are you using a 1.35V battery (mercury, zinc-air, Wein)?
Mirror damper you can replace yourself, as well as door seals.

Body #5

Overall OK. might be worth having overhauled
Meter - Jumpy / erratic, shutter speed ring?
Mechanical - stiff shutter speed selector
Cosmetics - good
Viewfinder - ok, split screen
Eyepiece - ok
Battery compartment - ok
Mirror damper - poor
Door seals - yuck!

See previous answer on jumpy meters.

Body #4 -- original, current user.

Overall - good user condition
Meter - ok
Mechanical - ok
Cosmetics - good
Viewfinder - ok
Eyepiece - ok
Battery compartment - light corrosion
Mirror damper - marginal
Door seals - so-so.

Corrosion you can clean yourself.

Body #3

Meter - Good
Mechanical - ok
Cosmetics - rough
Viewfinder - ok
Eyepiece - ok
Battery compartment - ok
Mirror damper - bad
Door seals - bad

Body #2

Meter - ok
Mechanical - ok, flash sync not working?
Cosmetics - nice
Viewfinder - ok
Eyepiece - ok
Battery compartment - corrosion cleaned up ok.
Mirror damper - ragged / mostly gone
Door seals - poor

Flash sync would be harder to repair if the main switch is corroded.

Body #1

Meter - erratic
Mechanical - film transport is irregular
Cosmetics - Bump on prism
Viewfinder - ok
Eyepiece - none
Battery compartment - corrosion cleaned up ok
Mirror damper - ok
Door seals - ok

Film transport can be just lack of cleaning inside the mechanism.

Body #0

Overall condition: partially disassembled, parts / scrap.
Meter - erratic
Mechanical - intermittent shutter not loading.
Cosmetics - poor, big scar on back below film advance lever
Viewfinder - dirty
Eyepiece - missing
Battery compartment - ok
Mirror damper - none / gone
Door seals - poor

This one looks more problematic. Just for parts?

Body 00

Overall condition: completely disassembled. parts / scrap
Meter - ok
Mechanical - jammed / broken shutter clockworks
Cosmetics - ok
Viewfinder - very dirty. split image focusing aid.
Eyepiece - missing
Battery compartment - clean
Mirror damper - poor
Door seals - gooey

This one is just for parts.

MattKing · Jun 18, 2018

Well the references in this thread to a CLA are fine, it is probably more realistic to say "overhaul" instead.
Some cameras really do just need to be cleaned, lubricated and adjusted, but many actually need to be repaired as well.
I think that the money necessary for an overhaul is money wisely spent if the camera is one you use, but the amount may still be prohibitive.

BrianShaw · Jun 18, 2018

MattKing said:
Well the references in this thread to a CLA are fine, it is probably more realistic to say "overhaul" instead.
Some cameras really do just need to be cleaned, lubricated and adjusted, but many actually need to be repaired as well.
I think that the money necessary for an overhaul is money wisely spent if the camera is one you use, but the amount may still be prohibitive.

That’s a very good point. It’s realy easy to use 3-letter acronyms but “overhaul” really is a better, more correct, term.

BradS · Jun 18, 2018

MattKing said:
Well the references in this thread to a CLA are fine, it is probably more realistic to say "overhaul" instead.
Some cameras really do just need to be cleaned, lubricated and adjusted, but many actually need to be repaired as well.
I think that the money necessary for an overhaul is money wisely spent if the camera is one you use, but the amount may still be prohibitive.

BrianShaw said:
That’s a very good point. It’s realy easy to use 3-letter acronyms but “overhaul” really is a better, more correct, term.

Yes, completely agree. I am a bit sloppy with the language in this regard. Everywhere I say CLA, it should be read as complete overhaul ( ~$125 to $190 ).

BradS · Jun 18, 2018

flavio81 said:
So, assuming all are Nikkormats of FT/FTN/FT2 variety, my comments:

....

Erratic meter is, invariably, due to the variable resistor around the lens mount (and brushes) requiring cleaning. Typical service that does good to Nikkormats.
....

This seems to be the common "soft failure mode" as all of them exhibit some degree of defect with the light meter. The resistor around the lens mount and an electrical contact behind the mirror box assembly seem like likely / obvious places too start looking...and although I can certainly disassemble to the point of getting at these, getting it back together is a bit beyond my ability so far.SO, I will continue to leave anything beyond basic surface cleaning to the professionals.

As it is, I have one out for an overhaul, and may send out another one or two. I'm going to send them to different shops and compare service, turn-around time, etc...

M-88 · Jun 19, 2018

BradS said:
Cosmetics - ok, small bump on prism, Black!

Door seals - marginal?

Viewfinder - full of black specks

Mirror damper - Bad/ missing

Door seals - gooey

Mechanical - stiff shutter speed selector

Battery compartment - corrosion

Those are the issues I usually disregard, since I fix them on my own. It gives me a bit of advantage in buying them for low price. Downside? My wardrobe is full of various bodies now.

blockend · Jun 19, 2018

The argument is over simplified. An old mechanical camera may or may not require an overhaul. If the thing functions smoothly and exposes within normal boundaries, leave well alone. When it stops doing so, get it fixed if you love it enough. For electronic cameras it may well be easier to buy another, especially one from a shop with a warranty, than get a repair.

For Leica cameras and similar exotica, it's cheaper to buy one in good working order than get a fix, especially if you use it as your main camera. There is no shortage of old Leicas that are effectively broken, or the service sector that will repair them - at a price. I suspect a lot of people buy malfunctioning or totally mashed Leicas for the simple reason of saying they own one. This stays on the shelf in favour of something more practical for taking photographs.

"Just buy another one"

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