Just bought a Nikon Nikkor 105mm F2.8A Printing Lens. What extension tubes/reverse adapters do I need to attach this lens to my Sony a7R IV to scan?

[manfrominternet]

Hello fellow photographers!

I've been using a Voigtlander MACRO APO-LANTHAR 110mm f/2.5 lens along with my Sony a7R IV to "scan" my many large format, medium format, and 35mm negatives and transparencies using various film carriers, 99 CRI light, etc., however, I've been rather disappointed with the results. I did a fair bit of research and found that a good solution would be to use a Nikon Nikkor 105mm F/2.8A Printing Lens. I recently purchased said Nikon Nikkor 105mm F/2.8A Printing Lens that was for sale on eBay and now it's being shipped to me.

The one issue that I'm facing is that I don't know exactly how to mount this Nikon Nikkor 105mm Printing Lens onto my Sony a7R IV (E-Mount/NEX-Mount). As seen in the photo above, this Nikon Nikkor Printing Lens I bought also includes 2 Nikon K5 Extension Tubes (20mm, each), 1 Nikon K4 Extension Tube (10mm), and 1 Nikon K2 Extension Tube (5mm) with a built in Nikon F lens mount.

That said, it appears the the extension tube needs to be 55mm long, but I'm not 100% sure about this. I found this RAFCAMERA 55mm Extension Tube (M52x0.75 to M45x0.75 thread adapter for Printing Nikkor 105mm lens) (see photo below) which was made specifically for this Nikon Nikkor 105mm Printing Lens to attach to various cameras via reverse adapter rings. To attach the RAFCAMERA 55mm Extension Tube to the E-mount (NEX) lens mount on my Sony a7R IV, I found an Amopofo 52mm to NEX (E-Mount) Reverse Adapter Ring (also seen below).

So, with all that said, am I missing something? How do I focus the lens if theres no lens helicoid? Also, if I'm mounting this Nikon Nikkor Printing Lens to a Sony a7R IV mirrorless camera, wouldn't the flange focal distance need to be greater than 55mm? I ask this because if 55mm is the distance for an extension tube to work with an SLR-style Nikon F-Mount camera, wouldn't the extension tube need to be greater than 55mm for a mirrorless camera to keep the exact same flange focal distance?

If I could get any help on this, it would be very much appreciated!

Many thanks ahead of time!

 

[runswithsizzers]

How do I focus the lens if theres no lens helicoid?

Bellows.

 

[mshchem]

Printing Nikkor 150mm F2.8 Optical Fantasy

 

[reddesert]

Back up the process, like, several steps.

What magnification ratio are you trying to achieve? What are the flaws in the earlier results that you think are attributable to the lens? Is this incredibly high-zoot lens even the right tool for duplicating a 4x5 film?

The most obvious answer to how do you focus the lens is with bellows, or less commonly a variable length extension tube, but the answer to how much extension you need depends critically on the range of magnifications you want to use.

 

[xkaes]

It's a process lens designed for 1:4 -- 4:1, so it's good for 35mm to 4x5. You'll need a bellows -- doesn't need to be Nikon -- but has to be long enough to get to at least 1X for 35mm (~300mm???).

You'll also need an adapter to your bellows -- you might need more than one -- that's without reversing the lens. If the lens is symmetrical, there is no point in reversing the lens. If it is Asymmetrical, results might deteriorate if the lens is reversed.

For 35mm (& MF?), it might make more sense to use a shorter focal length process lens (~75mm), so you can use less extension (~150mm).

 

[manfrominternet]

The magnification that I'm trying to achieve is 1:1. Since the female thread of the two included Nikon K5 (and Nikon K4) extensions tubes are 52mm, the Amopofo 52mm to NEX (E-Mount) Reverse Adapter Ring should fit at the end of those Nikon extension tubes (replacing the Nikon K2 Extension Tube (5mm) with a built in Nikon F lens mount), however I worry that since the Nikon K2 adds another 5cm of clearance, I would need to ultimately get a tube that really is 55cm in total length:

Do you guys think something like this 140mm NEX (E-Mount) extension bellows would work, or should I use something else entirely?:

Let me please apologize beforehand if I'm asking stupid questions; I'm really at a loss of what to purchase to make this Nikon Nikkor 105mm f/2.8 Printing Lens work with my Sony a7r IV.

Many thanks to you guys for all your help. I really appreciate it.

 

[Eric Rose]

I use an enlarging lens on a bellows without reversing the lens. Works great.

 

[xkaes]

The lens is not designed to be used reversed. The mount is Screw 2.75″⌀ P=1/24″. You need to get adapters from this screw mount to a bellows or a Sony E-mount. I do not know if there are E-mount bellows, but you can get bellows that can be used with additional adapters for your camera.

You need adapt the lens to a bellows, and then adapt the bellows to your camera -- these are completely different.

 

[reddesert]

You say that you need 55mm of extension, but it's not clear what focus distance or magnification ratio you'll get with that much extension. I'm not familiar with this lens, because it's a cult item. However, it seems to me that you need a lot of extension simply for the rear of the lens to mechanically clear, because the rear of it looks possibly too big to fit through the F lens mount throat. The 55mm of extension may just be what satisfies this mechanical necessity.

I am familiar with the K extension tube set (originally a 5 piece - you didn't get the K1 piece that has a Nikon F female flange and a thread mount, but you may not need it).

My opinion is that the easiest way forward is to 1) assemble the K tube pieces onto the lens so you have enough clearance to mount it to a Nikon mount; 2) buy a Nikon F mount bellows (easy to find); 3) buy a Nikon F lens to Sony NEX/E camera adapter (also easy to find). This will allow you to mount it to an E camera and give you a fair amount of focus travel. Whether it will allow the right focus distance must be determined by trying it.

I also think that this is not the magic bullet that is going to fix whatever it is you don't like about your scanning setup. A Nikon 55mm macro lens or an adapted enlarging lens on an F bellows or extension tubes, and F-to-NEX adapter might do just as well at 1:1, at considerably less cost and greater convenience (shorter working distance, etc).

 

[xkaes]

I also think that this is not the magic bullet that is going to fix whatever it is you don't like about your scanning setup. A Nikon 55mm macro lens or an adapted enlarging lens on an F bellows or extension tubes, and F-to-NEX adapter might do just as well at 1:1, at considerably less cost and greater convenience (shorter working distance, etc).

You're right. To get to 1:1 (for 35mm) with a 150mm lens means a lot of extension (the same with 1:4 for 4x5"). A much shorter lens will do the same job with less hassle. I use a 75mm f4.5 Tomioka process less on a Sony a900 to copy 4x5" down to 35mm. Works fine with a standard bellows.

 

[bernard_L]

How do I focus the lens if theres no lens helicoid?

Keep in mind that at 1:1 magnification, the lens-sensor distance is coupled with the magnification. And to achieve focus you need to move (camera+lens) relative to the object. Or move sensor relative to (lens+object).
So your bellows needs to be piggybacked onto a geared focusing stage.

 

[manfrominternet]

First of all, thank you to all of you who responded. I really appreciate it!

I think reddesert's suggestion of attaching the Nikon Nikkor 105mm Printing Lens to a Nikon PB-5 Extension Bellows and then attaching the Nikon Extension Bellows to a Nikon F-Mount to Sony E-Mount adapter is a good idea, so I'll try to start with that. I bought this Nikon 105mm Printing Lens specifically because I read that it's literally one of the very best lenses for copy work, which is basically what I'm doing when I'm 'scanning' my film negatives. (Reference where I read that the Nikon 105mm f2.8/A Printing lens is the among the best: https://www.closeuphotography.com/1x-test-2020

The goal is to have the best-lens-to-Sony-A7R-IV setup so I can get the sharpest possible scans from my negatives. I can't afford a drum scanner, unfortunately, so a setup including my Sony a7R IV will have to do for now.

Anyway, here's the way I currently scan my medium format negs with the Voigtlander Macro Apo-Lanthar 110mm f/2.5 lens and Sony a7R IV (with the Sony a7R IV always in portrait orientation):

This is approximately what my Sony a7R IV sees with the Voigtlander 110mm Macro Apo-Lanthar lens currently mounted on the Sony:

Per the example above, I generally shoot the left side of a 6x7 negative first (with the Sony a7R IV in portrait orientation), move the film over to the left, and then shoot the right side of the same 6x7 negative and stitch the left and right side of the image in Adobe Camera Raw or Photoshop. I shoot this way with every 120/220 medium format roll, whether the frame is 6x4.5, 6x6, 6x7, 6x9, 6x12, or 6x17. For 6x4.5 it just takes one shot, for 6x7 it takes two shots, for 6x9 it takes 3 shots, etc., etc.

With the Nikon Nikkor 105mm F2.5A Printing lens, I'd like to shoot it in the same way, at 1:1 ratio/scale. The real question is if it would is be feasible to attain that goal by attaching said Nikon 105mm Printing lens to a Nikon PB-5 Bellows Extension and attach that to a Nikon F-Mount to Sony E-Mount (NEX) adapter which can subsequently attach to my Sony a7R IV.

Does anyone have any idea how far the Nikon 105mm Printing lens needs to be from the full-frame sensor of my Sony a7R IV to get a 1:1 magnification ratio?

Finally, if using the Nikon Nikkor 105mm F2.8/A Printing Lens is a bad/idiotic idea, what then is the very best/sharpest 1:1 Macro Lens (of any brand) that I can get that I can attach to my Sony a7R IV?

Many thanks to you all again! I really appreciate all the advice and help!

 

[Kino]

Not a direct answer, but here's one person's experience with the lens from their use perspective:

Printing Nikkor 105 mm f/2.8 A

www.savazzi.net

https://www.savazzi.net/download/manuals/Printing-Nikkor.pdf

Maybe you can glean some required information from these links.

 

[runswithsizzers]

Does anyone have any idea how far the Nikon 105mm Printing lens needs to be from the full-frame sensor of my Sony a7R IV to get a 1:1 magnification ratio?

Not sure where you are getting the "1:1 magnification ratio"?

Is it correct to say you are filling the width of your Sony a7R IV sensor with the height of the 120 negative? If so, then you are matching the 56mm image height of 120 film to the 35.7mm width of your Sony sensor, and the magnification is 35.7/56 = 0.638x, or 1:1.57, right?

The "how far" part of your question is more complicated. There are formulas to calculate what the distance the lens must be from the sensor to produce a given magnification. However, those formulas are usually calculated based on a theoretical "thin lens" or require knowing the "nodal point(s)" of your lens, so they can be difficult to apply in real life with any certainty. The optical theory, assumptions, and definition of terms required to use those formulas are beyond my grasp, but maybe someone else can help.

For me, the only way to know for sure what the actual distances are between the camera, lens and subject, was to make an educated guess about what parts I needed, and try them out.

Your biggest worry should probably be this: When fully closed, your bellows is going to have some minimum thickness. To that, you must add the thickness of any adaptors needed to fit the bellows to your camera. Together, these combine to make some minimum amount of extension between the lens and the camera. If that total extension is greater than the amount of extension that results in 0.638x magnification, then the full height of the 120 negative image will be greater that the width of your sensor, resulting some unavoidable cropping. My "gut feeling" based my own experiences is that this will not be a problem for you -- but my experience was copying 135 film to an APS-C size sensor, so not really comparable to your situation.

 

[GLS]

Finally, if using the Nikon Nikkor 105mm F2.8/A Printing Lens is a bad/idiotic idea, what then is the very best/sharpest 1:1 Macro Lens (of any brand) that I can get that I can attach to my Sony a7R IV?

As that closeupphotography article you linked to says, the Sigma 70mm Macro ART is a very strong performer in comparison, and also very affordable. I use this lens for my digitisations using an A7RIV and have been happy with the results.

Seeing as you already have the Printing Nikkor though you should probably persevere to arrive at a solution to use it. I'd be interested in how it compares to the Sigma in a film digitisation test though.

 

[Stefan Schelosky]

Hello everyone, I just came across this post and simply signed up to give a few tips:

I use a Printing-NIKKOR 105mm with fixed focus on a copy stand with motorized macro rail.
The scale is 1.04:1, which corresponds to 7000ppi with a Fujifilm GFX100.
The distance from the lens flange to the sensor is 196mm (189mm at 1:1).
The M65x1-tubes from cnscope.com are of course subsequently flocked. (Note that 39mm is actually 36mm and 60mm is 57mm, the other lengths are correct.)
The grey M65 lens mount is a custom-made product with a M45x0.75 internal thread.
Working aperture is f/4. If absolute flatness is guaranteed even f/2.8.
The lens is simply incredible, as is the Printing-NIKKOR 95mm (2:1 or 1:2).

 

[MattKing]

Welcome to Photrio, and thanks for chiming in.

 

[koraks]

I just came across this post and simply signed up to give a few tips:

Thanks so much for taking the time to register and share your experience - it's very much appreciated indeed! Welcome aboard and I hope to read more about your experiences!

 

[vanylapep]

Hi OP, have you found a solution to adapt the Printing Nikkor to your a7riv? I am looking for a solution to pair the Printing Nikkor 105mm to my a7rii (which I think is similar to the a7riv). Thanks!

 

[reddesert]

I explained how I think you should do this in post #9. You need most of a Nikon K extension tube set to provide the threaded mount and depth to fit over the tail of the lens, a Nikon F-mount bellows, and a Nikon F-mount to Sony E-mount adapter. The only problem with this setup will be that it is not expensive enough to match a Printing-Nikkor.

 

[vanylapep]

I explained how I think you should do this in post #9. You need most of a Nikon K extension tube set to provide the threaded mount and depth to fit over the tail of the lens, a Nikon F-mount bellows, and a Nikon F-mount to Sony E-mount adapter. The only problem with this setup will be that it is not expensive enough to match a Printing-Nikkor.

Thanks. If I am not mistaken, the Printing-Nikkor has to be 104.5mm from the camera's sensor? If that's the case, by using the bellows, how can I make sure that the lens is positioned at exactly 104.5mm from the sensor? Is it just trial and error or is there a way to do it precisely?

Also, what do you mean by "this setup is not expensive enough", do you mean the adapters, or the Sony camera that is not expensive enough?

 

[Kino]

I think Reddesert was being a bit tongue in cheek when he said the setup would not be expensive enough for a Printing-Nikkor.

I have the 95mm and the 105mm which came with a Motion Picture Optical Printer and they were (are) hellishly expensive to purchase, but worth it for 1:1 35mm and 16mm optical printing/copying.

You will almost certainly need a bellows or lengthy set of extension tubes to use the lens in a meaningful fashion.

 

[reddesert]

Thanks. If I am not mistaken, the Printing-Nikkor has to be 104.5mm from the camera's sensor? If that's the case, by using the bellows, how can I make sure that the lens is positioned at exactly 104.5mm from the sensor? Is it just trial and error or is there a way to do it precisely?

Also, what do you mean by "this setup is not expensive enough", do you mean the adapters, or the Sony camera that is not expensive enough?

The distance of the lens from the camera's sensor depends on what object you are trying to focus on - infinity, 1:1 copying, something else? It also depends on the exact focal length of the lens as-constructed, and you can't just take a lens and place it 104.5mm from the sensor and call it good. You need a focusing method, which includes both a way to adjust the distance and a way to view the image as you adjust it - such as an SLR viewing system, or viewing a magnified image on the display of a mirrorless camera.

I may sound cranky, but I don't understand the rush to buy a very expensive cult lens without an understanding of what's necessary to mount and focus a lens. I think spending money on optics is sometimes a band-aid to cover up the other issues that arise in a copy/reproduction system (alignment, rigidity, illumination, etc).