Juried shows

chriscrawfordphoto · Aug 31, 2010

Exeter2010 said:
Don't pay any attention to that guy. He's a firestarter and a troll. He thinks because he ekes out a living selling the occasional print that it makes him a PROFESSIONAL and no one else has a valid point of view. If you leave it up to him, only a PROFESSIONAL (not sure what his definition of that is) is 'qualified' to make photographs that matter, enter contest, attend workshops, what have you...If you just ignore him, maybe he'll go away.

If making my living selling my work doesn't make me a professional artist, what does? I won't go away. You don't like what I say? Too bad. My experience in this area is helpful to those who actually want to exhibit and sell their work. The rest? Well keep whining, it won't make you a better photographer or a more successful one. There are a handful of people on this forum who actually earn their living, all of it, from sale of their work. If someone's asking about professional practices in the art world, then yes, the professionals are the only ones qualified to talk about it. Anyone else is just misleading people.

eddie · Aug 31, 2010

I make my living from my work, but I would never demean the work of those you call "amateurs", here. I've seen too many superb images produced by the "amateurs" to make such a blanket statement.

Exeter2010 · Aug 31, 2010

chriscrawfordphoto said:
If making my living selling my work doesn't make me a professional artist, what does? I won't go away. You don't like what I say? Too bad. My experience in this area is helpful to those who actually want to exhibit and sell their work. The rest? Well keep whining, it won't make you a better photographer or a more successful one. There are a handful of people on this forum who actually earn their living, all of it, from sale of their work. If someone's asking about professional practices in the art world, then yes, the professionals are the only ones qualified to talk about it. Anyone else is just misleading people.

Chris - You sure were quick to assume that "That Guy" in my comments was you. I guess my description there just didn't sound like anyone else, huh?

largely · Aug 31, 2010

Chris,
Wow! It must be difficult to make good images when your nose is pointed up all the time
The OP asked for OPINIONS. I did'nt see where he said "only opinions from elitest snobs will be considered"

Get over yourself.

Larry

eclarke · Aug 31, 2010

chriscrawfordphoto said:
If making my living selling my work doesn't make me a professional artist, what does? I won't go away. You don't like what I say? Too bad. My experience in this area is helpful to those who actually want to exhibit and sell their work. The rest? Well keep whining, it won't make you a better photographer or a more successful one. There are a handful of people on this forum who actually earn their living, all of it, from sale of their work. If someone's asking about professional practices in the art world, then yes, the professionals are the only ones qualified to talk about it. Anyone else is just misleading people.

Go here to see a professional.... http://www.johnsexton.com/bindex.html

Leigh Youdale · Aug 31, 2010

Time out guys. Go take a cold shower.
Last night I was at a presentation by a professional photographer, gallery owner and international juror. His credentials are impeccable and he only handles traditional black & white prints in his gallery. No digital. Ever. But in his work as a juror he's about to start on viewing 1800 digital images he's been sent - not just for selection (that's already been done) but for scoring. He doesn't necessarily like it but that's the way it's being done these days. Now, when you start getting precious about the quality of your actual print compared to digital etc, think also about how much time each of the jurors in different countries are going to give to each of the 1800 images sent to them. About 15-20 seconds at most, and much less for many I'd think.
So, if you don't like the process I guess the answer is not to enter anything. if you enter, those are the rules you'll play by and be judged by.

paulie · Aug 31, 2010

* Juried shows
is this a american thing?, never heard of it

Leigh Youdale · Aug 31, 2010

For "jury" read "panel of judges". They each score the images independently and the points are totalled. They can individually be in any country of the world and never see the 'real' images or the other 'jurors'. Sometimes the finally successful images are exhibited as a physical "show" and sometimes displayed on a web site. Often it's just a competition for a prize or two and the results are announced on a web site or in a magazine.
Not particularly American, but the use of the word "juror" smacks of late night US-origin crime/law enforcement soaps, doesn't it? Like the word 'precinct'. I'll bet a lot of American urban photography is done in precincts.

eclarke · Aug 31, 2010

Leigh Youdale said:
Time out guys. Go take a cold shower.
Last night I was at a presentation by a professional photographer, gallery owner and international juror. His credentials are impeccable and he only handles traditional black & white prints in his gallery. No digital. Ever. But in his work as a juror he's about to start on viewing 1800 digital images he's been sent - not just for selection (that's already been done) but for scoring. He doesn't necessarily like it but that's the way it's being done these days. Now, when you start getting precious about the quality of your actual print compared to digital etc, think also about how much time each of the jurors in different countries are going to give to each of the 1800 images sent to them. About 15-20 seconds at most, and much less for many I'd think.
So, if you don't like the process I guess the answer is not to enter anything. if you enter, those are the rules you'll play by and be judged by.

I can see that it's the process and I guess it works. I'm not angling to present my stuff, I really have no interest in contests. I was merely surprised when this information was sent to me and I saw how they were going to do it. I can see that the the jurors have a massive job. I've judged slides before for 8 hours at a stretch and really didn't think about the volume of submissions. I don't think the show which provoked my thread will be so massive...EC

chriscrawfordphoto · Aug 31, 2010

eclarke said:
Go here to see a professional.... http://www.johnsexton.com/bindex.html

Yeah, John Sexton's a professional. So are a lot of other people, including me. Like Sexton, I earn 100% of my living off of my photography. You can keep trying to to put me down, but it doesn't change the fact that what I said in this thread is the truth. The very fact that you refuse to debate what I said rather than trying to make me look bad as a person shows that you know you're wrong. Give up.

chriscrawfordphoto · Aug 31, 2010

largely said:
Chris,
Wow! It must be difficult to make good images when your nose is pointed up all the time
The OP asked for OPINIONS. I did'nt see where he said "only opinions from elitest snobs will be considered"

Get over yourself.

Larry

I'm telling you people how the art world works. I know this from 15 years as a fulltime professional. Hell they teach kids in art school this stuff, and you guys still don't get it? Why is it so difficult to understand that someone might actually know what he's talking about? Call me names all you want, the fact that you won't debate what I've said shows that you know that you are wrong.

Sean · Aug 31, 2010

chriscrawfordphoto said:
I'm telling you people how the art world works. I know this from 15 years as a fulltime professional. Hell they teach kids in art school this stuff, and you guys still don't get it? Why is it so difficult to understand that someone might actually know what he's talking about? Call me names all you want, the fact that you won't debate what I've said shows that you know that you are wrong.

Probably not so much what you are saying but how you are saying it. It's like you're on the attack, which tends to ruffle feathers in forum land.

billbretz · Aug 31, 2010

chriscrawfordphoto said:
Look, I'm telling you how its done. Don't like it? Too bad. The art world isn't going to bow to a bunch of whining amateurs.

The hate toward digital of some of the people here makes all photographers look like fools who only care about process. That is precisely why photography was not accepted as art for so long and why some still refuse to accept it as art.

Like it or not digital printing processes are here to stay and they're fully accepted in the world of the professional artist. You don't have to use them. Hell, I still shoot film for 100% of my work. You can use any processes you want, but when you constantly rundown people who use digital you make only YOURSELF look bad. Curators and gallery directors have no time for people who have to talk bad about how someone else works to try and elevate their own work. It makes you look like a nasty backstabber, and no one wants to deal with that type of person. If your work is good, it'll stand out no matter what others are doing. If it sucks, then no amount of badmouthing digital users will make your work suck any less.

I joined APUG because I like to shoot film and wanted to talk to other film users. I have no need to fight a crusade against digital. I'm too busy making and selling my work for such silliness.

Chris-
Your response, quoted above, was to me. Therefore, again, you are speaking without knowing what you are talking about.

Here's where you are wrong:

#1: I am a professional photographer, one who is a so-far proud survivor in a declining industry (photojournalism) in which I make 100% of my living with a camera. (So don't say I am an amateur. If you want to say I am a whiner, go ahead, but understand that is obscenely insulting in what should be a reasonable discussion).

#2 I love and use digital daily as a professional photographer, and have since switching over for work 10 years ago (So don't say I'm 'constantly running down people who use digital.' You are creating this argument on your own.)

#3 I said digital submissions are the norm in today's world. We agree on this, but you continue to act like I say the opposite is true. (See post #2 of this trainwreck.)

#4 No one is arguing with the opinions expressed here. Everyone has a big problem with the haughty, condescending and mean-spirited tone you have taken.

We have something in common, we both use film for our art, and we both love film. Please consider we all have this in common on APUG, and it is your tone, not anyone else being argumentative, that is the only issue pushing this to 40+ posts.

Colin Corneau · Aug 31, 2010

I emailed the juror with the question...

You mean you didn't write a letter and mail it?

I'm not busting your balls, here -- I am a HUGE believer in analog and the beauty of the hand-made, wet print and I very much respect your obvious love of it, too.

I'm just suggesting that this process is for selection only, and that it would be beneficial to look at it from the jurors' perspective - they need to be efficient in their work with so many artists taking part. Short of sending the actual print that will be exhibited - not an option I think anyone would take - there's some sort of leap of faith in the selection process.

I wouldn't let this stop you from showing the fruits of your hard work, nor from spreading the word about film photography with this opportunity...eye on the prize, and all that.

eddym · Sep 1, 2010

Chris may not be the most polite contributor to this conversation, but his post does present the facts of most juried exhibitions of any size. Our art guild has been holding an annual juried show for 11 years now, and I have been involved in all but the first one. We are still small and regional enough that most of the entries are the physical works of art, and the jurors appreciate that fact. However, we do have members who live in the States or elsewhere and cannot easily submit their originals, so we accept digital images and slides as well. Yes, many of the digital and slide submissions are poor representations of the art, and they put the artist at a disadvantage. But there is no acceptable alternative. Shipping art work for the purpose of jurying is expensive and impractical, so no one would participate if they had to do it. Slides, photos, or digital images are the only real option. In a large show, requiring all submissions to be digital levels the playing field for all entries and makes the task of the jurors much more practical.

eclarke · Sep 1, 2010

Colin Corneau said:
You mean you didn't write a letter and mail it?

I'm not busting your balls, here -- I am a HUGE believer in analog and the beauty of the hand-made, wet print and I very much respect your obvious love of it, too.

I'm just suggesting that this process is for selection only, and that it would be beneficial to look at it from the jurors' perspective - they need to be efficient in their work with so many artists taking part. Short of sending the actual print that will be exhibited - not an option I think anyone would take - there's some sort of leap of faith in the selection process.

I wouldn't let this stop you from showing the fruits of your hard work, nor from spreading the word about film photography with this opportunity...eye on the prize, and all that.

Touche. Unfortunately, the US postal service is going through the same adjustment to the virtual world as analog photography, there's some speculation that they won't survive this year. This is not a digital vs analog thing, I now realize that large juried shows are pretty much like PSA competitions or art fairs with tons of submissions. I was surprised at this because here in Wisconsin the events are pretty small and this digital submission is sort of new for a local type event. It also explains why there is questionable work hanging at some shows. Tough job for jurors and I'm sure that those who actually get to see the shows have a little anticipation..Cheers..Evan

papagene · Sep 1, 2010

Here is my take on this issue as someone who has been on both sides of the fence as a submitter and reviewer/juror:
You submit your slides/digital file - much easier on the artist (postage/shipping$$$$$$); much easier on the reviewer/juror (easier to view slides/digital than handle actual artwork).
If your slide/digital file is crap, no matter how good your original artwork is, you get rejected (I could tell you many horror stories of how artists think some odd presentation is cool).
If your slides/digital file looks good and you get accepted, you send in your work. Now if your work does not live up to what the slide/digital file presented, you work is rejected. As a reviewer/juror I have seen this happen on numerous occasions.

Most jurried competitions I have either entered or read about have this final step stated in their published info. It only makes sense.

Now, as an analog artist am I against digital presentation for jurried submissions? No. Having had to review many portfolios and having jurried shows I know that it makes more sense... as long as you have that final disclaimer.

My $0.02 worth.

AgentX · Sep 3, 2010

The one juried show I entered, all of the slides were lost. One entrant sent original artwork, though, and was traumatized and incredulous that her hard work (original assemblies, one-of-a-kind stuff which would take significant effort to *try* and replicate) was simply gone.

I wouldn't send original prints off. It limits how much distribution your work can get, it's expensive, and they're likely going to scan whatever you send them so that they can share it with the jury via email or in an LCD-projected slideshow,anyhow.

Digital is simpler, and a direct scan of one of my negs (because I'm that kind of photographer; not everyone can scan the neg...) gives a much better impression than a slide or dupe. AND it's cheaper.

I agree with Chris Crawford that there's a knee-jerk anti-digital undertone to this thread, and many others on APUG, and it set the initial round of condescension in play. Like him, I shoot film because I like to, not because I need to lord a supposed superiority of medium over anyone, or because I'm infatuated with a process rather than a result. Mind you, I'm a mediocre and quite amateur photographer, not a pro or even a good photographer by any means. But the sentiment still bothers me, for what it's worth to anyone here.

eclarke · Sep 4, 2010

Hi, I did 10 years of digital along side of my film photography. Digital prints frequently don't come close to their web representations...EC

Ken Nadvornick · Sep 4, 2010

Please see the APUG post:

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

From the press release,

"Black & White Photography is the only magazine which caters specifically for photographers working in black & white. The competition accepted entries from digital and film photographers but entries had to be supplied as prints."

[Emphasis is mine. -Ken]

Not exactly a local or regional juried exhibit. Larger than that. But still, not every judging venue appears to see the need to look only at scans of the submitted artwork. And I'll bet that just about everyone involved with this competition are professionals earning the bulk of their income from photography.

Ken

P.S. Congratulations to Bill...

Juried shows

chriscrawfordphoto

eddie

Exeter2010

largely

eclarke

Leigh Youdale

paulie

Leigh Youdale

eclarke

chriscrawfordphoto

chriscrawfordphoto

Sean

Admin

billbretz

Colin Corneau

eddym

eclarke

papagene

Membership Council

AgentX

eclarke

Ken Nadvornick

Juried shows

Admin

Membership Council

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency