Jobo vs Tray with pyrocat hd

bobbysandstrom · Jul 22, 2005

Hello everyone. I'd appreciate some feedback with regards to pyrocat hd jobo cpp2 vs tray developing. Any pros and cons other than the obvious convenience of the jobo. Being that pyro is supposed to produce a nice sharp image, will I gain even more apparent sharpness with trays? Also, I'm going to do my testing with efke 100 and fp4 Plus. Any pros and cons there would be helpful as well as I start down those roads.

Thanks All

Bob Sandstrom

David A. Goldfarb · Jul 22, 2005

Since the Efke is prone to scratching, you might prefer drums for that, but with careful technique it can be done in trays.

Donald Miller · Jul 22, 2005

The Jobo will give you more even development than tray development. For the greatest edge effects (greatest apparent sharpness) you may want to consider BTZS type tubes with minimal agitation. While FP4 will work for tray development, I, personally, would not use tray development with Efke.

bobbysandstrom · Jul 22, 2005

Don, I might I get the same effect as BTZS tubes with jobo at slowest rotation? Or, is there a way to let the tubes rest with no agitation.

Thanks
Bob

Tom Duffy · Jul 22, 2005

Bob,
Pyrocat HD in a Jobo is about the perfect combination. the sharpness and tonal scale of pyro with the even agitation of the Jobo. I don't think your 4x5 negs will need more than this combination has to offer. Semistand development has its downsides also in terms of the potential for blotchy skies, etc. I advise you try the Jobo first and then see if you have any complaints.
Take care,
Tom

Jeremy · Jul 22, 2005

I've never had any trouble with even development or scratches (when I'm careful) in trays and I am using Efke. To be honest though, I am going to be making a slosher tray (like the Summitek cradle) so that I don't have to worry about it at all.

Donald, would using the slosher with minimal agitation be any different than using the BZTS tubes?

Tom Hoskinson · Jul 22, 2005

I'm not Don, but I use both slosher trays and BZT type tubes with Efke 100 (4x5, 5x7 and 8x10) and Pyrocat-HD. Which system I use depends on how much sink space is available to me in my shared darkroom.

I find that my results are equivalent in the slosher trays and tubes with both minimum agitation and semi-stand agitation. I get even development and no neg damage with both systems (sloshers and tubes).

Jeremy · Jul 22, 2005

Thanks, Tom, it's good to hear from someone with first-hand experience in both routes. I'm going to get some acrylic tomorrow and make a slosher for 3x4 negs.

noseoil · Jul 23, 2005

I'm not Don, but I use Efke 100 and minimal agitation with BTZS tubes and Pyrocat. The results are wonderful. It is the sharpest way to use pyrocat that I have found so far. Edge effects are stunning and razor sharpness is the rule. If you will read Donald's post, he says "minimal agitation" not "stand development" as was questioned.

The method with BTZS tubes (go to articles / how to / 4x5 development tubes, for the method of making your own tubes) is to use a dilute solution of pyrocat hd (1:1:100 or even less at times 1:1: 150) and do a full minute of agitation. Tubes are then stood on end and allowed to rest for three minutes in the correct temperature of water bath or ambient air. Ten seconds of agitation and stand on end again. This is the sequence until completion. The tubes listed require 240ml of working solution per sheet of 4x5 film. You will have full edge effects from pyro this way.

Jeremy, using the slosher tray will not give the edge effects available with pyrocat (nor will rotary processing). Some form of stand development is necessary, in order to take advantage of the developer-film symbiotic-synergistic acutance relationship. tim

P.S. Sorry, but I always wanted to throw those words together and, unfortunately, this thread was the recipient. Feel free to vomit on my monitor.

colrehogan · Jul 23, 2005

noseoil said:
Jeremy, using the slosher tray will not give the edge effects available with pyrocat (nor will rotary processing). Some form of stand development is necessary, in order to take advantage of the developer-film symbiotic-synergistic acutance relationship. tim

P.S. Sorry, but I always wanted to throw those words together and, unfortunately, this thread was the recipient. Feel free to vomit on my monitor.

BARF! Consider yourself slimed!

I think you've been in the corporate environment for too long if you're putting words like that together.

Jeremy · Jul 23, 2005

noseoil said:
Jeremy, using the slosher tray will not give the edge effects available with pyrocat (nor will rotary processing). Some form of stand development is necessary, in order to take advantage of the developer-film symbiotic-synergistic acutance relationship. tim

Tim, I think we are on a different wavelength about what a slosher tray is, I mean the device just like the Summitek cradle. It doesn't move anything, it's just a piece of formed plastic that keeps the individual sheets separate, but allows the liquids to flow indiscriminantly.
http://www.summitek.com/cradle.html

Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious--always wanted to write that in a forum, too

sanking · Jul 23, 2005

bobbysandstrom said:
Don, I might I get the same effect as BTZS tubes with jobo at slowest rotation? Or, is there a way to let the tubes rest with no agitation.

Thanks
Bob

The development of edge effects that enhance sharpness is not a no/no go event that is totally dependent on type of agitation. Minimal and extreme minimal agitation is the way to go if you want to get the greatest possible sharpness with Pyrocat-HD, because allowing the film to rest for much of the time during development enhances edge effects. However, even with rotary processing, at least with those forms where the film is out of the developer for part of the time, you will get some edge effects. At those times when the film is out of the developer there should be local exhaustion of the developer at the border of high and low contrast areas, and this exhaustion produce edge effects.

So how much time does the film "rest" during rotary processing? Depending on configuration of the drum, and the total amount of developer used, I estimate that the film is out of the developer with most forms of rotary processing for well over 3/4 of the total time of development.

However, to get the most out of edge effects with rotary processing I would recommend a very dilute solution of Pyrocat-HD, say 1:1:150 or even 1:1:200. The more dilute the solution the more pronounced will be the edge effects. For alternative processes, which requuire longer develoment times, 1.5:1:150 - 1.5:1:200, will minimize general stain. Development times will be longer with the weaker dilutions, but when one wants maximum sharpness, time is your friend.

Sandy

George Collier · Jul 23, 2005

Someone please enlighten me - I have not heard of the "cradle" mentioned in this thread, but copied the word "Summitek" from the thread and googled it, got the web site, but no cradle there. I get some idea from the description in Jeremy's post, but what is it? I am about to move from MF to 4X5 with PMK, and want to keep my hands free of the stuff. Most of my 4X5 up to now has been with HC110 or TMAX dev, in trays, with the top to bottom shuffle, very successful for 20-some years, but I can't see (no pun intended) doing this with gloves. I'm too cheap for JOBO, at least at this point, and am considering the tubes (self made), but am curious about the cradle thingy.

Richard Wasserman · Jul 23, 2005

Someone please enlighten me - I have not heard of the "cradle"

Gearge,
Try this: http://tinyurl.com/9whv3

Richard Wasserman

magic823 · Jul 23, 2005

George Collier said:
Someone please enlighten me - I have not heard of the "cradle" mentioned in this thread, but copied the word "Summitek" from the thread and googled it, got the web site, but no cradle there. I get some idea from the description in Jeremy's post, but what is it? I am about to move from MF to 4X5 with PMK, and want to keep my hands free of the stuff. Most of my 4X5 up to now has been with HC110 or TMAX dev, in trays, with the top to bottom shuffle, very successful for 20-some years, but I can't see (no pun intended) doing this with gloves. I'm too cheap for JOBO, at least at this point, and am considering the tubes (self made), but am curious about the cradle thingy.

Photograpers' Formulary also sells them. I picked up a 4x5 one from them and its great. Sandy King walked me through his semi-stand method with Pyrocat and the negs are amazing. I think PF also makes 5x7 and 8x10 trays.

sanking · Jul 23, 2005

magic823 said:
Photograpers' Formulary also sells them. I picked up a 4x5 one from them and its great. Sandy King walked me through his semi-stand method with Pyrocat and the negs are amazing. I think PF also makes 5x7 and 8x10 trays.

Yes, I used to think that the negative had to be in vertical orientation with stand and semi-stand development, but the cradle concept with the negatives on the horizontal works great with this kind of development as I saw with Steve's negatives.

Sandy

magic823 · Jul 23, 2005

sanking said:
Yes, I used to think that the negative had to be in vertical orientation with stand and semi-stand development, but the cradle concept with the negatives on the horizontal works great with this kind of development as I saw with Steve's negatives.

Sandy

Any thoughts on stand development for roll film (35mm)? I have three rolls of FP4 I shot at a portrait class this week that I need to develop tonight. Any time for FP4? or should I just use regular development

Steve

sanking · Jul 23, 2005

magic823 said:
Any thoughts on stand development for roll film (35mm)? I have three rolls of FP4 I shot at a portrait class this week that I need to develop tonight. Any time for FP4? or should I just use regular development

Steve

Steve,

I would recommend minimal agitation for these negatives. Just take the normal development time at the indicated temperature and increase by 50%. Agitate for 1.5 minutes at the beginning, and then thereafter every three minutes for 10 seconds. Just make sure that the total development time is 16 minutes or more.

I would recommend the 1:1:100 dilution of Pyrocat-HD for this, but if you are more familiar with PMK you should also get good results with it.

Best

Jorge · Jul 23, 2005

Funny you should ask this. I just finished doing testing for TMY in Xtol and Pyrocat HD and I found that for TMY I had better results in tray development than with the Jobo. Even at the slowest setting there was too much b+f and oxidation with the Jobo expert drums and Pyrocat.

I think you should do your own testing, but I gotta tell you, after using the Jobo there is no way I am going back to trays. I have decided to change to Xtol for my negatives, not as cheap as Pyrocat but certainly worth it if I dont have to stand there brushing or spinning negatives...

sanking · Jul 23, 2005

I can not speak to the experiences of others, but my own B+F levels with TMY and Pyrocat-HD in rotary processing are quite low. For example, when developing for a DR of 1.75 for straight palladium printing, using the 2:2:100 dilution at 72ºF, I get a B+F value of 0.15 with 7 minutes of development, with slow rotation.

Using the 1:1:100 dilution, for the same DR I need 13 minutes of development, which gives a B+F value of 0.35.

If you use a 2:1:100 dilution, time for the same DR (1.70) is about 12 minutes, but with a B+F of around 0.15.

In these cases DR and B+F levels are based on UV reading. They are considerably lower with Blue analysis.

Sandy

Jorge · Jul 23, 2005

This is why I said he should do his own testing. My tests show that for my water etc, etc. TMY developed in Pyrocat (2:2:100) in Jobo expert drums at 20º C for an Average gradient of 0.83 had a b+f of 0.44. A target average gradient of 0.68 had a whoping 0.33 b+f. (all UV readings)

This is clearly unacceptable, I cannot try and print pt/pd with b+f of 0.33. This adds one stop exposure to my printing times. This is why we do our own testing, no?

Tom Hoskinson · Jul 23, 2005

The Summitek Cradles (sloshers) are well made and reasonably priced. They are available for 4x5 and 5x7.

http://www.summitek.com/cradle.html

The PF sloshers are of equivalent quality to the Summitek Cradles, but at a higher price. PF does make an 8x10 version

sanking · Jul 23, 2005

Jorge said:
This is why I said he should do his own testing. My tests show that for my water etc, etc. TMY developed in Pyrocat (2:2:100) in Jobo expert drums at 20º C for an Average gradient of 0.83 had a b+f of 0.44. A target average gradient of 0.68 had a whoping 0.33 b+f. (all UV readings)

This is clearly unacceptable, I cannot try and print pt/pd with b+f of 0.33. This adds one stop exposure to my printing times. This is why we do our own testing, no?

Yes, your B+F levels, even with the 2:2:100 dilution, are high in comparison to mine. The question is why? I don't think it has anything to do with water, since the potassium carbonate solution at 2:2:100 is extremely well buffered. I am guessing that the speed of rotation of your Jobo is much faster than I get with my method of rotary, which is about 5 RPM or slightly lower.

I must confess that I have never directly compared Xtol to Pyrocat-HD, but my comparison to D76 1:1 for an average gradient of .83 shows a B+F of 0.13 with D76 versus 0.15 with Pyrocat-HD, 2:2:100.

Sandy

Jorge · Jul 23, 2005

sanking said:
Yes, your B+F levels, even with the 2:2:100 dilution, are high in comparison to mine. The question is why? I don't think it has anything to do with water, since the potassium carbonate solution at 2:2:100 is extremely well buffered. I am guessing that the speed of rotation of your Jobo is much faster than I get with my method of rotary, which is about 5 RPM or slightly lower.

I must confess that I have never directly compared Xtol to Pyrocat-HD, but my comparison to D76 1:1 for an average gradient of .83 shows a B+F of 0.13 with D76 versus 0.15 with Pyrocat-HD.

Sandy

I dont think it is speed rotation as much as time outside the developer. With brush development I had very little b+f, with the JandC drums it was the same thing, low b+f even at fast rotations, but with the Jobo, the film spends a lot of time out of the developer since the drums have a large diameter. I imagine if I increase the potasium bromide a little bit (maybe from 0.2 to 0.4) it might help, but I am almost sure it is due to aerial oxidation. Or I could do uniderctional developmet in the Jobo drum with faster speeds. I might try that another time and post it here, I have enough Xtol right now to last me for a few weeks, then again who knows, Kodak might decide to stop making and I am going to have to find a way to make Pyrocat work since I cannot get ilford here....

sanking · Jul 24, 2005

Jorge said:
I dont think it is speed rotation as much as time outside the developer. With brush development I had very little b+f, with the JandC drums it was the same thing, low b+f even at fast rotations, but with the Jobo, the film spends a lot of time out of the developer since the drums have a large diameter. I imagine if I increase the potasium bromide a little bit (maybe from 0.2 to 0.4) it might help, but I am almost sure it is due to aerial oxidation. Or I could do uniderctional developmet in the Jobo drum with faster speeds. I might try that another time and post it here, I have enough Xtol right now to last me for a few weeks, then again who knows, Kodak might decide to stop making and I am going to have to find a way to make Pyrocat work since I cannot get ilford here....

I would not recommend increasing the amount of bromide in the Pyrocat-HD solution as this will result in a loss of film speed. A much better solution in my opinion, based on your description of the problem, would be to add a small amount of ascorbic acid to the working dilution. Ascorbic acid, if added in the right amount, will cut B+F without a loss of film speed. But the amount needs to be just right because if you add too much you will kill the stain.

For amount of ascorbic acid to add, I would suggest about 10 ml of a 1% ascorbic acid solution per liter of working Pyrocat-HD solution. This should drop B+F values without decreasing the stain.

Sandy

Jobo vs Tray with pyrocat hd

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