Jobo processor - concerns

kal800 said:

Hi,

As I stepped into large format and I willing to make colour developments as well, I decided to get myself a processor. Naturally I considered Jobo devices as primary choice and have some concerns that I need to clear before I make actual purchase. These are the choices that I have:

1. Brand new CPP3 - looks fantastic, but the price is an overkill. It is not the question whether one can afford it or not, it is simple not the value for almost €4000.
2. Used CPP2 - there are two of them currently listed - both without the lift, and first edition before any upgrades, looking pretty worn out. It would be the best option, but it cannot be simply bought.
3. Used CPA2 - I've got really nice unit to buy - after second upgrade, with lift in really nice conditions, seems not to be used much. Price is also OK - less then €1000.

The decision should be easy to make, but I have second thoughts with regard to CPA's temperature control system being rather simple and not so precise as CPP's digital control. On one hand, doing mainly B&W and occasionally E6 (I'm not using colour negatives at all) only for myself I won't need so precise process, but on the other hand exact temperature is absolutely fundamental factor affecting process quality. But maybe there is even better solution - fit CPA with modern digital temperature controller with the temp probe. I believe it would work even better than that one from CPP2, because the latter comes from eighties when digital gear was far from the modern ones. It should be a matter of fixing the controller to the processor's chassis and redirect heater's control from original knob to the new controller. Has anyone tried such solution, or heard of?

Kal800

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I would not be overly concerned about temp control with the CPA-2. I used one for many years and processed color negatives as well as B&W with no problems. I processed everything from 35mm, 120/220 and 4X5 in both 2500 tanks and reels and expert drum for 4X5. I would start with water at approximately the correct temperature and wait for it to stabilize. I used a good thermometer and with some trial and error was able to stabilize the temp within about 1/2 deg C and could repeat this every time I used the machine.
I never used the CPA for prints as I had a Fujimoto CP-51 for both color and B&W printing.
If you can get a good CPA-2, go for it, never look back and spend the extra money on film.

kal800 said:

CPA2 will take both 2500 series and Expert. 2500 on all versions, Expert - after 2nd upgrade - Serial numbers 13200 and up. Here's the reference:

Jobo FAQ

This FAQ page will discuss the various options in choosing a manual Jobo processor. For more information about AutoLab options, please contact us...

www.catlabs.info

CPE2 is only for 1500 series, CPA2 is the same as CPP2 but without cold water solenoid and digital temp controller.

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I run only the 2500 series on my CPE2+

kal800 said:

@philippe - it is really tempting option and within my budget. Concerns - this is HUGE. I can't imagine how it could be shipped - BTW, what is footprint of the device? Second - installation - the water setup seems to be really complex. Could you explain how you connect the device into water/drain infrastructure. Third - how do you operate this device? There are no tanks, just reels, you put it into the chamber below chemical containers?

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Besides the shipping to Poland, it's rather simple concept once you understand the system and have read the manual (comes in Dutch, German and English).

For shipping: a regular van, like a VW Transporter, will suffice (these you have in a far large number in Poland) and a strong helping hand.
BTW, I have a Transporter too, but due to an ailing health (T.I.A.), I can't drive distances further than 200 km or for longer than 2 hours, nor can I lift heavy weights...

What the footprint concerns: the Colenta's volume is about as large as two washing machines put next to each other. AND needs exactly the same power demand, water supply and waste water drain as a washing machine (regular 15mm cold and hot water tap, 230 Volt/16 Ampère and a 32mm drain). A handy man can easily install it.

Just like in a kitchen, you will need a hot water tap too, although the built in surrounding water bath can provide for the exact warm water, this will take a bit more power (Watts).

The Colenta is a fully automatic and autonome operating machine, there are six 2,7l holding tanks, operated with electro magnetic valves, who are kept on the very right temperature by a 90l surrounding water bath, and is microprocessor operated.

I had an undercarriage made out of welded steel frame tubes, so it can stand independently at working hight everywhere, which comes in the package too, along with all the documents and handbooks (in English) you will need.
The Colenta is actually a straight table top machine, and as I reed what Sirius Glass wrote, it isn't that more larger than his CPP2+, it's just almost twice as wider and heavier...

Over time, I have collected some spare parts, which are included, but the factory in Austria has a large stock of spare parts, you wouldn't believe what they still can provide!

In attachment you will find some schematic data.

I would say go for the Jobo, but be prepared to do some repairs. The great thing about these machines is that they are very simple and robust, and you can repair pretty much anything that goes wrong. The downside is that they are old and part will fail over time.

On the subject of people trying to replace the temperature control of a Jobo with a cheap temperature controller, I would note that the C-41 process requires a temperature accuracy of +-0.15C. That's accuracy, not precision. There are lots of cheap thermometers out there that advertise a precision of a thousandth of a degree, but an accuracy of +-1C, which is unacceptable for C-41. If you shop around, you'll see that thermometers with that degree of accuracy usually cost a few hundred dollars, and there are very good reasons for that. Basically if you see a temperature control device that advertises that accuracy for < $100 I would be wary. Not only is it very hard to get that level of accuracy, once your system is accurate it needs to be calibrated. The temperature accuracy, stability and calibration of a Jobo is most of what makes them expensive. Keep that in mind when people talk about these machines and their alternatives (like a $50 sous vide in a bucket).

pwadoc said:

I would say go for the Jobo, but be prepared to do some repairs. The great thing about these machines is that they are very simple and robust, and you can repair pretty much anything that goes wrong. The downside is that they are old and part will fail over time.

On the subject of people trying to replace the temperature control of a Jobo with a cheap temperature controller, I would note that the C-41 process requires a temperature accuracy of +-0.15C. That's accuracy, not precision. There are lots of cheap thermometers out there that advertise a precision of a thousandth of a degree, but an accuracy of +-1C, which is unacceptable for C-41. If you shop around, you'll see that thermometers with that degree of accuracy usually cost a few hundred dollars, and there are very good reasons for that. Basically if you see a temperature control device that advertises that accuracy for < $100 I would be wary. Not only is it very hard to get that level of accuracy, once your system is accurate it needs to be calibrated. The temperature accuracy, stability and calibration of a Jobo is most of what makes them expensive. Keep that in mind when people talk about these machines and their alternatives (like a $50 sous vide in a bucket).

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Not only accuracy is important but stability is at least as important, if not paramount!
Stability is best achieved with mass...

What about ATL-2? I have some offer to buy it in fully working condition, circuit board replaced by Jobo recently, etc.

kal800 said:

What about ATL-2? I have some offer to buy it in fully working condition, circuit board replaced by Jobo recently, etc.

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Decent machine, but they are very, very old and even with a replaced circuit board you need to be ready to do repairs on it.

kal800 said:

What about ATL-2? I have some offer to buy it in fully working condition, circuit board replaced by Jobo recently, etc.

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There are multiple circuit boards on this ancient ATL-2. The ATL-2+ that I had was old. The ATL-2 is even older. Components at the circuit board level fail and are no longer available. Fred from Wisconsin is the guru on these older ATL machines. I gave him my old one. He had to replace many components on multiple circuit boards.

Look for a newer CPA or CPP machine. While manual, much less to go wrong.

I purchased a used CPE2+ and use it for 4x5 processing. Temp control is spot on with both a water bath thermometer and one in the developer bottle. Both thermometers agree.

I have had both a CPA2 and CPP2 and they are both great. The CPA seems slower to heat and you need to calibrate the dials with the desired temp. I kept the CPP2 mainly because it seemed to handle Expert drums better. Both are miles ahead of the CPE2 when it comes to robustness. But if the largest I needed to develop was 4x5, I could have managed with the CPE2.

That said, I am still hoping to get a CPP3, but my research says the new mandated lower overflow valve is a royal PITA and prevents the tempering bath level to reach the optimal height. Still, I may just get one….

(BTW, I have a very nice spare CPE2 with lift I need to put on the market if anyone is interested. )

GDI said:

I have had both a CPA2 and CPP2 and they are both great. The CPA seems slower to heat and you need to calibrate the dials with the desired temp. I kept the CPP2 mainly because it seemed to handle Expert drums better. Both are miles ahead of the CPE2 when it comes to robustness. But if the largest I needed to develop was 4x5, I could have managed with the CPE2.

That said, I am still hoping to get a CPP3, but my research says the new mandated lower overflow valve is a royal PITA and prevents the tempering bath level to reach the optimal height. Still, I may just get one….

(BTW, I have a very nice spare CPE2 with lift I need to put on the market if anyone is interested. )

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I have used a CPP3 and there is nothing to fear about the overflow valve, just turn it upward to prevent leaking too soon. The engine feels more powerful and smoother than my CPP2's, also the embedded timer is something you just need after the first use. It was really difficult to come back again to the CPP2...

halfaman said:

I have used a CPP3 and there is nothing to fear about the overflow valve, just turn it upward to prevent leaking too soon. The engine feels more powerful and smoother than my CPP2's, also the embedded timer is something you just need after the first use. It was really difficult to come back again to the CPP2...

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Glad to know that - but you may cost me a chunk of money!

I think I may regret not springing for one now - I’m sure the price will only continue to rise. I’m going to have to start looking at gear I can sell to finance one!

If you're using 4x5 a CPE3 can do a lot of sheets using 2509n reels. I have both Expert and 2509ns and though the Expert drums are faster to load I don't prefer one over the other. Plus the smaller footprint of the CPE units is very nice. You really just need the larger units IMHO for prints or 8x10 film (with the 3005 drum).

NortheastPhotographic said:

If you're using 4x5 a CPE3 can do a lot of sheets using 2509n reels. I have both Expert and 2509ns and though the Expert drums are faster to load I don't prefer one over the other. Plus the smaller footprint of the CPE units is very nice. You really just need the larger units IMHO for prints or 8x10 film (with the 3005 drum).

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Good point on the 2509n reels. I use IR goggles so loading is a breeze. I have 3010 Expert drums, but prefer the 2509n, primarily due to ease of washing. I pop the reels in a film washer or use a Jobo cascade washer.
For larger than 4x5 the Expert Drums are hard to beat.

Hi, got one after all - NOS CPA2 - first edition, but I'm willing to upgrade the controller and motor after all. Current unit is without lift yet, but I will fit it too.

Got a short question - how do you wash your films in Jobo processors? Now I'm using Ilford method - 5-10-20 inversions in each cycle and it works for me - how do you apply this procedure in the processor?

kal800 said:

Hi, got one after all - NOS CPA2 - first edition, but I'm willing to upgrade the controller and motor after all. Current unit is without lift yet, but I will fit it too.

Got a short question - how do you wash your films in Jobo processors? Now I'm using Ilford method - 5-10-20 inversions in each cycle and it works for me - how do you apply this procedure in the processor?

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I use six liters of water, 500ml for 30 seconds, dump and repeat until all six bottles are emptied. Then remove the film from the reels or drum and place them in a tub filled with PhotoFlo [mixed according to the directions not an unmeasured blob] for 30 seconds to a minute. Hand to dry then use a paper towel only at the bottom corners to draw off excess liquid. I have never had a problem using this method.

kal800 said:

Hi, got one after all - NOS CPA2 - first edition, but I'm willing to upgrade the controller and motor after all. Current unit is without lift yet, but I will fit it too.

Got a short question - how do you wash your films in Jobo processors? Now I'm using Ilford method - 5-10-20 inversions in each cycle and it works for me - how do you apply this procedure in the processor?

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When using a lift, if you want to keep using the Ilford method, send two 500ml of water through the lift and let rotate for 10-15 seconds each, then remove tank and do the Ilford method. This will make sure the Jobo parts in the lift remain clean. You may even be able to modify the Ilford method to account for the time the film was washed in the processor.

Otherwise, I just do what Serious Glass does....

Sirius Glass said:

I use six liters of water, 500ml for 30 seconds, dump and repeat until all six bottles are emptied

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