Jobo is going in bankruptcy

Why should used-prizes (for processors) rise?
Jobo still offers processors though production was cancelled years ago. Thus people are not interested in new ones.

Mahler_one said:

Mirko? Can you enlighten us at all?

Click to expand...

or even beter, try to get the tooling for the Jobo tanks and related products so that you can have them made by some small plastics shop.

AgX said:

Why should used-prizes (for processors) rise?
Jobo still offers processors though production was cancelled years ago. Thus people are not interested in new ones.

Click to expand...

As you inferred, my comments were based on the Jobo analog product line, not the digital product line. Simply look at the prices for processors, and especially expert tanks, on that auction site. For example, expert tanks that I purchased for $250 or so a few years ago are selling for close to $450-$500 now. The Euro to Dollar exchange rate has obviously made buying new Jobo materials quite expensive here in the USA, and thus used Jobo materials have also risen in price. If there will no longer be any new Jobo products made, than once the available new supply is gone ( Are there new CPP units still available, and if so, what is the price? I have occasionally seen new CPP processors available for $3,000 or more. Yes, I suspect that such new items are considered to be over -priced and will not easily sell ), there will be no other source for Jobo processors other than on the used market. If there is a demand, wouldn't the price rise -as we have seen has occurred with the expert tanks and other Jobo products? The price might not rise to the price of a new processor of course. However, my 2 1/2 year old CPP processor has, judging from many of the prices on ebay, increased in value along with the previously noted prices for the expert tanks.

I agree completely that another source for Jobo parts would be wonderful to find.

The Jobo tanks and parts I have seen are injection moulded which would put it out of reach of small shops. Producing parts even with existing tooling would be an expensive, serious operation. I am working with Bob Carnie on a specialized machine and ancilliary products and will post more information in the near future. Without benefit of mass production, options are severely limited.

I'm becoming more concerned....IF there are no parts to replace worn out items, then eventually-absent another source-those of us who use Jobo analog materials will indeed be "up the creek"....of course there are other options that work for so many ( tubes, trays, hangers, nitrogen burst, developing by inspection, etc. ) but the convenience and consistency of using the Jobo will be hard to replace. Perhaps Jobo can reorganize into a smaller entity....sigh....

Personally I'm not worried. They made a lot of the processors. New units still will occasionally surface (I helped my friend score a new old stock, never been filled with water, CPP2 from the mid 90s from ebay last week) Plastic lasts a long, long time. Electronics and motors can be rebuilt or replaced. Unlike Bob Carine, my Jobo is for personal use and will likely outlast me.

This is obviously a dynamic event with the outcome to be determined as the process works its way through the legal system in Germany. All we can do is cross our fingers and see how it all plays out.

This is a very innovative group of professionals with many alternatives available. Should push come to shove film will continue to get processed and prints will continue to be made one way or another.

richard ide said:

The Jobo tanks and parts I have seen are injection moulded which would put it out of reach of small shops. Producing parts even with existing tooling would be an expensive, serious operation.

Click to expand...

Much of the cost of Injection molded parts is making the Molds. If those are available there are "large" firms that do nothing but run injection molding equipment, and send the rough parts to smaller makers to finish. to replicate each of the molds for even a small tank would likly be 10-50 thousand bucks a part. (Top, Botom, lighttrap, locking ring, core, reel top, reel bottom, film separator (that little red plastic gizmo that lets you put two rolls of 120 on the reel), cap. Two more parts to make the Gear, another part for the magnet holder.

Any ideas on rotary processors? I bought a Rollo Pyro kit and was starting to look for a Jobo unit but they are of course not a consideration presently. Has anyone made a rotary tube for multiple films out of ABS like the Jobo film tank. It looks like six cylinders within a larger cylinder. I might have to make a tube and adapt a 12 volt DC gear motor I have, it reverses and would be easily adapted to a gear and timing belt or pulley and belt etc.. It looks like another work around. I know that the Jobo units are much more sophisticated than an ABS tube but that where it's come to. I bet someone out there has a home built unit that works perfectly.

Curt

Many used processors available

Curt,

Just go to eBay. I just did. Many JOBO processors still available used or NOS. These are built to last, and I agree with ic-races. * But I have spare unit just in case*

Curt said:

was starting to look for a Jobo unit but they are of course not a consideration presently.

Click to expand...

Just find one used or even a new stock - any Jobo processor in good condition will last you for years and years. Don't count them out yet.

Curt said:

Any ideas on rotary processors? ... I bet someone out there has a home built unit that works perfectly.

Curt

Click to expand...

Not a home built unit, and it's film only, no paper capacity, but I love my Phototherm.

I've got several carcasses for spares as well. But here again, prices on those have started to climb on the auction site.

One trick I did think about (and actually worked on but never perfected) before scoring the Phototherm was to put a Patterson multi-reel tank into an oatmeal box filled with injectable foam. And use one of the cheap rotary bases to agitate.

This is what I was working on. It may be very USA specific depending on availbility of "stuff" other places.

Put the Patterson (3 reel seems about right size) into a plastic grocery bag. Smaller is better, but enough to cover the tank and keep the foam away from it.

Set the tank in the center of an empty oatmeal box, then fill the box with "Great Stuff" injectable foam. (Or similar.)

Make sure you can get the tank in and out of the foam after it hardens. (Here's where the plastic bag helps.)

Pour in chemicals in the film and go for it. The foam makes a great temperature control device.

Things to keep in mind:

1) Regardless of whether you have one, two or three rolls of film in the tank, you need the same amount of chemical since the tank will be horizontal. Your chemical volume needs to sufficiently wet the film on each and every rotation. (This is similar to the old Rondinax or Load-o-mat daylight tanks that you only fill half way. The rotary action keeps chemical on the film that's not submerged.)

2) Rotary development increases contrast. Experiment accordingly. This ain't stand development.

3) I found the older Patterson tank with the small lid works better than the new one with the funnel. Easier to get into and out of the oatmeal box. YMMV depending whether you're more or less coordinated than I am.

4) Remember that you can't use really fast development times, since the action of filling the tank takes some time, and the film on the bottom will be submerged while the film on the top reel will not. This is only a few seconds, but if you're development times are too short, you're hosed.

5) Don't try to use too big a tank either. It gets unwieldy and the liquid sloshing makes it easy to drop.

6) As soon as I got the Phototherm I completely abandon this idea, so I never worked out any good work flow or details.

Good luck if you try this. I'm not responsible. I told you I abandon it in favor of a real processor. But processors were cheaper back then.

Another vote for phototherm

I too have a Phototherm, after looking in vain for a reasonably priced ATL-1000 or 1500 for a long while. I am glad I got the Phototherm in retrospect. I think it's a better processor overall and pretty easy for DIY service if need be. Film-only, yes - but that's fine, there are better options for paper anyway (e.g. Fujimoto).

Sad to see Jobo go into bankruptcy though, in any case.

-Ed

Kirk Keyes said:

Just find one used or even a new stock - any Jobo processor in good condition will last you for years and years. Don't count them out yet.

Click to expand...

Kirk: I certainly don't disagree about the longevity of Jobo equipment. However, even a "new" Jobo motor can fail. And if the motor fails, what does one do unless there are spare parts? Not everyone can afford to keep a back-up Jobo unit in the closet just in case.

I used and liked my Jobo CPP2 lift processor when I had it, but did have a few complaints on the cog system and heater unit. I ran it for about three years and then sold it on eBay. I traded and old beat-up Nikon F with a complete motor drive system to a dealer in Indiana for a very complete CPP2 system that came out of a lab. I picked the Nikon up for $75.00 so I didn't have much in the Jobo CPP2. I started watching the prices start to climb on eBay, decided I could still process everything by hand that I was doing in the Jobo. I stuck the whole outfit on eBay and got $977.00 for it and was very happy. Now, here is what I think about JOBO and some of their products and it's only MY opinion of course. JOBO products are just way over inflated when it comes to retail price. I know a bit about injection molding/cost and for these processors and tanks their pricing is just way out of line. I always wished that somebody would have come into the market place and cleaned JOBO's clock, but it never happened. I would have rather seen JOBO sell their processors and acc. for less money to more people. Maybe they wouldn't be dying now if they would have sold more units for slightly less money. For me, I'll just stumble along like I am and keep my money for things like paper and film. JohnW

Another comment in favor of Phototherm... much higher quality construction than Jobo, or at least the Jobo CPE-type processors. Jobo is flimsy. Phototherm is much beefier.

Alan,
Yes, flimsy might just be a perfect fit for describing it. I, for one, don't believe flimsy and high $$$$$ go to well together. Of course that's just me. JohnW

alanrockwood said:

Another comment in favor of Phototherm... much higher quality construction than Jobo, or at least the Jobo CPE-type processors. Jobo is flimsy. Phototherm is much beefier.

Click to expand...

How much does a new Phototherm cost? I looked up and could find they start at $5000. How much for the one to do prints?

As far as I can tell, Phototherm's current lineup is for film up to 4x5. No 8x10 or 5x7 processing capability.

Renato Tonelli said:

As far as I can tell, Phototherm's current lineup is for film up to 4x5. No 8x10 or 5x7 processing capability.

Click to expand...

This is true. The unit as delivered is without any sheet film options, and the 4x5 adapter is pretty pricey. I've posted a few things about it in other threads as well as on photo.net.

A part of that price is stunningly low sales volume.

I have a few of the 4x5 adapters, and what I find is that the chemical volume required to process 3 runs of 4 sheets (12 total) are on par with the volume required to process 12 sheets in a single go session using a Yankee tank. But the results with the Phototherm are much, much more consistent.

After a lot of examining, I've convinced myself that one could disassemble the 4 sheet 4x5 adapter and reconfigure it to hold 2 sheets of 5x7. But Phototherm doesn't sell it that way.

I'm also convinced that a little ingenuity could produce one that would hold 2 sheets of 8x10, but that would require a Phototherm SSK8 to get a tank long enough to hold the sheets. (I suppose one could use the SSK4 and just put the long tank on, but that's just a guess. The FP1 would probably be problematic, but I've tried to scheme solutions. Not tried anything yet.)

I did engage the president of Phototherm a couple of years ago about renting the molds to me and trying to produce a production run large enough to get the price down to $25 instead of the current $120 Phototherms sells it. But it would take a run of about 5K parts after you figured set up, materials, assembly labor, overhead, etc., and I had no illusion/delusion that I could unload that many adapters. If everybody reading this thread agreed to buy 100 each that's not enough. Smaller runs mean higher costs.

As for purchasing existing stock, and cutting them up to get salvage parts to make a 5x7 or 8x10 experiment, that's expensive. I figured I'd probably destroy two assemblies trying to fabricate one acceptable 5x7, although one might be able to make one for one after the initial experiments. Unfortunately all of Phototherm's available stock of 4x5 adapters is already assembled, so buying the tinker-toy parts isn't a choice. You'd have to disassemble completed units.

As for making an 8x10, I figure you'd probably destroy 6 new units to fabricate the first working 8x10, but I believe one could make them one from two donors after it is worked out.

The design itself isn't complicated, but if you wanted to start from scratch completely you're looking at $50-70K mold work.

This is no easier nut to crack than making a Jobo tank.

If some angel here has pockets full of money and doesn't mind doing it at a loss I'll dig up the old conversations and see if Phototherm is still interested. But there's no way I saw to do it even break even, and certainly not a viable business strategy. I even tried to get Patterson to look at it, since the current unit fits a Patterson 3 reel tank perfectly. I thought if you could get that as a market angle to get unit sales higher you might be able to make the numbers. But I never heard a peep back from Patterson.

MB

alanrockwood said:

Another comment in favor of Phototherm... much higher quality construction than Jobo, or at least the Jobo CPE-type processors. Jobo is flimsy. Phototherm is much beefier.

Click to expand...

But Alan, the price for the phototherm is astronomical.

Mahler_one said:

But Alan, the price for the phototherm is astronomical.

Click to expand...

You've got that right. It is way too expensive for a new Phototherm for a hobbyist, which is what we all are. (With some exceptions, sure. But the hobbyists here outweigh the pros by a large margin.) Part of that price is low volume, and because it's a low volume product it's hand built instead of mass produced on an automated assembly line. If they were making them like they make computers they'd cost $500. When you take the thing apart there's nothing particularly magic about it. (But it is quite an ingenious design.)

A real film based pro shop that's looking to keep the doors open with consistent quality processing day in and day out doesn't see $6K as a huge investment. It's not trivial, but it's not huge either. I've got software packages for my profession that cost $5K, and another $2K/yr maintenance for them to send me a stupid CD every 18 months. So $6K for a machine that saves hundreds of hours of labor per year plus produces better results is a bargain.

The problem is that the market Phototherm served dwindled. It never was targeted at the home user, while Jobo was.

Phototherm was not targeting the Kisok market either. The 35mm one hour minilab machines, when film was the standard, were the kings of economy of scale. The last time I was in the local Ritz camera before they ripped out the minilab the store manager offered it to me for free if I'd promise to haul it away. Even if he paid me to take I couldn't afford enough film as a hobbyist to keep the chemistry in spec.

A good pro shop of 15-20 years ago needed quick but consistent processing, and it wasn't sustained high volume. A mini-lab wasn't good, and sending it out wasn't fast. Back when my cousin's husband was still shooting weddings he'd charge $20K, 3 photogs would show up, they'd pop off 60-80 rolls of film (mostly 120/220, some 135), and he'd have proof sheets made in-house in a couple of days. That's the user Phototherm targeted. The albums might take a couple of weeks to make all the prints, and the prints were developed on one of the RA4 processors. During the week he might have a handful of portrait sittings that also needed quick but reliable turnaround. So I'd wager that a Phototherm to this kind of shop has break even point for labor reduction at 5-8 months at most. So after one year the pro shop is money ahead for dropping the $6K into the machine.

When 90% of those shops closed, the Phototherms went to the auction site. The last kid I knew who had a "big" wedding demanded, and got, just the raw data files. And he had them before he left on his honeymoon the next day. And it all fit on one DVD.

So, the Phototherm isn't overpriced for what it is, it's just not a tool designed for guys like us. The fact that we can get them these days is gravy. And I'm here to tell you that the folks at Phototherm are extremely supportive even if you bought the thing used from someone, and you are merely picking their brains for information.

Would I buy a new one for $6K? If I made my living at old school film photography, then yes. As a hobby, I can't afford it new. But as a hobby, I got one used. (From one of our own members no less.)

(And if I win the lottery I'll buy a new one just out of loyalty.)

MB

Used Phototherm's are sometimes available for a good price. I bought two on ebay. One was about $300 as I recall. The other was about $100. Those were exceptionally good deals however, and anyway, prices seem a bit higher on ebay these days. $600-1000 is probably more typical. Still, it isn't all that much higher than the prices jobos sometimes sell for, and it is a lot better machine, though as others have indicated it is not as versatile as Jobo.

michaelbsc said:

The problem is that the market Phototherm served dwindled. It never was targeted at the home user, while Jobo was.

Click to expand...

Jobo did not only offer those CP-range processors, but also those ATL-range ones and those, at least the 2nd generation ones, where aimed at commercial photographers.

AgX said:

Jobo did not only offer those CP-range processors, but also those ATL-range ones and those, at least the 2nd generation ones, where aimed at commercial photographers.

Click to expand...

And they are more difficult to find on eBay because they weren't as well distributed.

I don't follow their prices much, but I think they sell for more than the CPP line.